Discussion
Paul Krugman
LadyCailin: None of this is any surprise to people who had two brain cells to rub together. He showed massive corruption in his first term, and despite being impeached twice, got away with it scot free. Then got a huge mandate from the people to be a shitty person, so yeah, he’s corrupt. The majority of voting Americans don’t really seem to care.
rich_sasha: While I agree it is very suspicious, needs investigating and far, far greater oversight in general, I'm not sure there is enough to conclude this definitely is insider trading. Markets are weird. People trade for weird reasons, sometimes gently and in small size, sometimes aggressively and all at once. We're zooming in at a short window just before the tweet. If you look at random windows you'll find these too. 6.49 am is around lunchtime in Europe, and people exist there too. Crude oil liquidity isnt at its peak at that time but certainly not "thin". It's really not that uncommon for traders to accidentally send a "fat finger" trade, much bigger in size than intended or appropriate for the market conditions.I'm not trying to split hairs here. There's been plenty of weird coincidences and each should be investigated, and on the balance of probability at least one may well be insider trading at the highest echelons. And in any case, in any financial job you need pre clearance for trades, often justifying why you're doing them if they are odd enough. There are minimum holding periods, day trading is not allowed, and the full record auditable by regulators. It is insane to me that politicians are not subject to such rules and it must change.But to conclude that a weird trading pattern is definitely insider trading is IMO cheap. It's like TV drama where the unemployed, wife-beater-wearing husband definitely killed the wife, end of story.The real tragedy IMO is that this is really avoidable. It would take very basic, very standard regulation to stamp this out, and we wouldn't be debating this in a technology forum.
u1hcw9nx: The quantity makes it more than weird. This is not just price change, prices can move big amounts for weird reasons without significant changes in trade volumes. The volume of sales makes it significant.$580 billion sales of oil futures and probably similar amount of buys in stock futures means $1T quick trillion move.
cbeach: I wander if the scale of this alleged insider trading will come close to the systematic insider trading that occurred under the Biden term and gave rise to the PELOSI Act?
jfengel: "Treason" seems a bit much. We put a very high bar on that term because it comes with the most serious consequences.The fact that nobody seems particularly surprised by it suggests that the damage is long since done.
QuadmasterXLII: *580 million
giaour: The $580MM transaction described in the article is already 1,000 times larger than the alleged congressional insider trading by Paul Pelosi that caused Sen. Hawley to introduce the PELOSI act.
epolanski: And very soon, as economics and behavioral sciences suggest, we will have world events directly influenced by people having the incentives to make them happen for financial gains only.There's a reason we have banned and prosecuted any hint of insider trading or match fixing for centuries. Yet we play dumb on way more serious risks, allowing betting on whether a country will attack another and labeling it "information hedging and price discovery".I can't but look at the modern world with worry. We live in increasingly Orwellian and dystopic times. The world has never been so rich and evolved, yet, as a society, we're increasingly unhappy, alone and void of purposes that aren't greed and selfishness related.We're looking at the decadence of a civilization and all we can do, at best, is post about it over the internet, and that's when we're in the aware crowd not falling for bitter insulting and fighting because somebody else holds different ideas.
Grimburger: > I'm not sure there is enough to conclude this definitely is insider trading. Markets are weird.This was 6-8x the size all the existing trades on market combined, with zero other publicly available information early on a Monday morning 15 mins before an announcement that significantly moved the market.Not even the biggest hedge funds in the world with coked up yolo traders go make 1.5 billion dollar bets like that, it simply doesn't happen.It's egregious and blatant insider trading. The position got closed not long after the news came out.
libertine: I'm sorry but I'm finding it hard to believe this is a real comment.How's this a coincidence?Trump has boasted about this, that's the point we're in.[0]He's announcing in a newsletter a fund raising where they will share national secrets with donors.[1]This is literally people paying to get access to privileged information, in a fund raising for what?Like it's openly being said that if you give him money you will make a lot of money, this is unprecedented.Trying to normalize it by saying "it's not corruption because it's done out in the open", or to bend reality to make an excuse for this, like it's a coincidence... it's insanity.[0]https://youtube.com/shorts/E2dr8En2N5A[1]https://youtube.com/shorts/yhG1XWptoak
technothrasher: We (the US) put a high bar on it because the Crown was using it as a way to attack political enemies and we didn’t want to follow suit. It is such a high bar in this country that it is effectively dead law, as nobody has been tried for it since soon after WWII, and very very few people have been convicted, and of those several had their convictions overturned.The current administration does, however, throw the term around against its political enemies quite a bit, as have people in general pretty much throughout history.
the_gipsy: Excuse my ignorance, but why can't this be traced? It's not crypto wallets, why is there no transparency here?
stephbook: It can be traced, but the people who could and should be tracing this have been told not to.Even if they found the culprits, what's a judge's verdict against a presidential pardon?
kubb: Honestly the PELOSI act is a step in the right direction, and should be extended to include all kinds of cryptocurrency and real estate. Also the president and his extended family should be included in it.The only problem is in the name. It's clearly just to score political points. I'd be surprised if it gets approved.
rubyfan: I agree the article could include more data around the frequency and size of these kind of trades around other events and for a longer period.However as the article notes the time and size of this particular series of trades makes it look suspicious and that’s all one can say with certainty at this point.
Grimburger: There was equity futures and oil contracts both at the same time. Total risked with zero public news was approx $1.5B
imafish: Vote, protest, speak up, go into politics.
IAmGraydon: It absolutely can be traced. The administration has people blocking investigations.
lapcat: Trump received 49.8% of the vote, which is not quite a majority. Also, Harris received 48.3% of the vote, only 1.5% less, so in any case it was not a huge mandate.Not to mention 49.8% of 64.1% turnout is only 31.9% of eligible voters. The US has a political duopoly in which both parties are widely disliked, as well as minority rule.
-warren: Agreed. War Profiteering [0] is probably a better term.[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_profiteering
magpi3: > Even if they found the culprits, what's a judge's verdict against a presidential pardon?This is bad logic. A presidential pardon at least exposes the corruption, and exposing the corruption is more important than a prison sentence.
magpi3: Maybe because the rot runs so deep in Washington that nobody really wants this to be a big deal. A little like the Epstein files: so many people would be caught up in the web if insider trading in DC were properly investigated that nobody wants to go there.
kasey_junk: To be clear when people quote the billion dollar number they are quoting the notional value.Those contracts have between 8-15x leverage depending on margin rules.This doesn’t remove the corruption problem but it brings the number down into realistic values. And while the volumes were odd for the overnight they aren’t that strange for normal hours trading.
sonzohan: It's not that it can't be traced, the author is stating it won't be traced because high-ranking government officials are selling those secrets.This is actually not new in this administration. Last year the president posted on social media telling people to buy stocks a few hours before he announced tariffs (https://apnews.com/article/trump-truth-social-djt-tesla-musk...).The bigger problem isn't whether or not it can be traced, or if it should be traced. It can and it should. The central issue at stake here is the sale of government secrets to private and (presently) anonymous groups for profit. The author is stating that since we don't know who the trader of that commodity is, and because that commodity's price is tightly coupled to actions related to the war, that trader could be helping enemies of the U.S. Without the knowledge of who the person is, or how they knew to make such a huge market movement, a claim of treason can be argued.The biggest problem is the intelligence community is heavily rooted in trust. Movements like these signal there's an intelligence leak to the general public, or more appropriately, someone with $580 million lying around. An intelligence leak reduces trust; allies are less likely to share information if it's leaked. Conversely, trust is returned when the leaks are found and plugged, and measures put in place to prevent those leaks in the future. The author is stating that these leaks are unlikely to be plugged, which will reduce trust in American intelligence. After all, as the president said, "Let's say I was gonna do it or let's say I wasn't gonna do it, why would I tell you?" (https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c4gqjyk0vx3t)Except he is telling someone, and that someone is making a lot of money.
pbhjpbhj: You don't think starting a war apparently to distract the media, then lying about peace talks solely to drain money from the markets is treasonous?How about when combined with all the tariffs, which seem designed to be market levers and/or just vindictive acts?Pushing businesses to the edge, plunging people into poverty, so your cronies and you can drain money from the stock market?Or taking bribes using crypto? Or ...They all seem treasonous - actively harming your own country to enrich yourself.Even if you don't find them treasonous, you have to admit they're in contravention to the emoluments clause; so Congress should still impeach the evil bastard.And we haven't even started on his crimes beyond the simple financial ones from the last year!
rapnie: And vote with your wallet. In general, contribute your 2 cents to the good cause. Let your voice be heard, join initiatives that work on solutions. Whatever you do. It does matter.
kasey_junk: It can. Orders on the cme are tied to a specific trader id.The question is not if it can be investigated it’s if it will be and what will happen with the findings.The first thing the Trump admin did in its second term was gut the anticorruption offices and the cftc.
watwut: Literally everyone who investigated Trump got fored or left.Flynn just got large payout as reward for breaking the law for Trump.That is why.
epolanski: Politics require more than good intentions.See how many vile, empathy-void sociopaths are elected across the world because they have the political skills required to make things happen.What I try in practice is to lead by example, and be a good neighbor/citizen. In my village, 90% of the people would rather bitch about the mayor or public services not cleaning up the park for months or years, when you can simply grab few plastic bags and clean most of it in few hours. I'm glad my initiative has pushed more citizens to actively care and take matters in their hands.Yet the scope of degeneracy and risks are now at the global stage and I don't think I can do much when people with the wrong incentives are elected in office, if there's elections at all.
stephantul: It’s a serious comment, posted solely with the intent to sow doubt.
patall: So, who is paying the bill here? I am assuming the insider trading itself is zero-sum (its obviously different if what's happing happens only to allow insider trading) and while some (like passive investors like me that buy every month) win a bit, others lose a bit, someone loses big on the futures market. Is that the high frequency and quant traders? Because I assume, someone must be really mad? Especially since, and I again 'assume', that there must be easier and less public ways to bribe the admin
protocolture: >KrugmanHe should have traded on his bet against the internet.
yifanl: Is there anyone who isnt Trump4Life who still needs to be convinced theres corruption happening very high up in the government?We've very little doubt its happening, and it does us no good if there arent actions taken against it.
anonu: "Treason" is a bit hyperbolic. Futures are governed a bit differently around MNPI versus equities - based on CFTC rules. If the MNPI was obtained through a duty breach then it still "might" be illegal. Most futures MNPI enforcements have been around energy data or FOMC announcements. But its usually noticed due to consistent, repeated patterns. A one-off event like this, while egregious, is probably not going to be chased. Not saying thats right... I am just saying the grift will continue...
kasey_junk: Notional. Those contracts have between 8-15x leverage.
patall: Maybe a naive question: those transactions are traceable. But we assume this admin will not turn itself in. However, such transactions in other nations would be investigated. Are there cases of similar transactions before the US presidents tweets in i.e. Europe?
kasey_junk: The losses would be diffuse. In the commodities markets you have a blend of speculative action and real economic activity. The blend is different based on the contract as well. The emini futures are pure financial engineering so it’s harder to track directly to the underlying economic activity.Wti is much easier. Lots of real economic actors that produce or consume oil are active in those markets.
throw0101c: > It's not that it can't be traced, the author is stating it won't be traced because high-ranking government officials are selling those secrets."US SEC's ex-enforcement chief clashed with bosses over Trump cases before leaving, sources say":* https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-secs-ex-enforcem..."SEC enforcement director quits":* https://www.cfodive.com/news/sec-enforcement-director-abrupt...The head of the SEC didn't want the SEC's investigation division to investigate (certain things).
DLA: Nothing at all in [0] indicates anything about insider information being used to profit. It was a comment about some companies making money after tariffs.Nowhere does [1] say they are going to “share national secrets with donors.” Sure it’s an aggressive fundraising email (which both parties do) but nobody is selling secrets.Your commentary is both false and inflammatory.
basilikum: It's you. Every trader who does not have the insider information loses. That's how markets work after all. They collect information by rewarding the use of information. Anyone who has information and uses it is rewarded and anyone who does not is punished.Even when you are a passive investor you lose. You essentially buy shares at random points in time. When that point happens to fall between the trading of an insider and the public disclosure of the insider information you will get a worse price for that trade.It isn't even relevant whether the insider buys stocks or other securities directly or trades in futures instead. All information you enter into the market through trades permeates the whole market through arbitrage regardless of where you enter that information.
