Discussion

Some Things Just Take Time

rkwtr1299: And yet https://earendil.com/purpose/ is dabbling in AI and many posts by Ronacher are low key promoting AI.He is contributing to the madness.

vaylian: Speed is useful, when you have a good idea or a hypothesis you want to test. But if you are running in the wrong direction, speed is of very little value. With LLMs it might be even harder to stop and realize that you are creating the wrong thing, because you are not spending effort to create the wrong thing.

binsquare: I can relate to this, when time and effort of coding is a limiting factor it forces people to be more thoughtful about what to create.

luxurytent: I think he's learning how to effectively use the tools we now have and is sharing his experience in a thoughtful way. Madness is a stretch

andyhedges: > We require age minimums for driving, voting, and drinking because we believe maturity only comes through lived experience.Not true, we do this because the 99% of the time it's true, however there are people who would be perfectly competent and responsible to drive without living to the age of 16-18. Same with voting, there are humans who have a deep understanding and intelligence about politics at a younger age than suffrage. Equally there are people who will be reckless drivers at 40 and vote on whim at 60.We have these rules not because sophistication only comes through lived experience, we have them because it's strongly correlated and covers of most error cases.To take this to AI, run the model enough times with a higher enough temperature, then perhaps it can solve your challenges with a high enough quality - just a thought.

titanomachy: > We pay premiums for Swiss watches, Hermès bags and old properties precisely because of the time embedded in themLost me in paragraph three. We pay for those things because they're recognizable status symbols, not because they took a long time to make. It took my grandmother a long time to knit the sweater I'm wearing, but its market value is probably close to zero.

Swizec: > everybody who is like me, fully onboarded into AI and agentic tools, seemingly has less and less time available because we fall into a trap where we’re immediately filling it with more thingsYou fill a jar with sand and there is no space for big rocks.But if you fill the jar with big rocks, there is plenty of space for sand. Remove one of the rocks and the sand instantly fills that void.Make sure you fit the rocks first.

big-chungus4: You fill the bottle with water, you put a fish in it, you remove half of the water, the bottle is still half full, but if you remove the fish, it will have less water than before

simonw: I would say that wearing a sweater knitted by one's grandmother is its own kind of status symbol. I'm more impressed by that (someone having a grandmother willing to invest that much effort in a gift for them) than someone spending $1000 on an item of clothing.The fact that those items took a long time to make is part of what makes them status symbols though, because if you pay a lot of money for something that took no time to make at all (see most NFTs) you look like an idiot to a lot of people.

lapcat: > I’m also increasingly skeptical of anyone who sells me something that supposedly saves my time.Imagine a world in which the promise of AI was that workers could keep their jobs, at the same compensation as before, but work fewer hours and days per week due to increased productivity.What could you do with those extra hours and days? Sleep better. Exercise more. Prepare healthy meals. Spend more time with family and friends. The benefits to physical and mental well-being are priceless. Even if you happened to earn extra money for the same amount of work, your time can be infinitely more valuable than money.Unfortunately, that's not this world. Which is why the "increased productivity" promise doesn't seem to benefit workers at all.

QuadrupleA: > everybody who is like me, fully onboarded into AI and agentic tools, seemingly has less and less time available because we fall into a trap where we’re immediately filling it with more thingsI do wonder if productivity with AI coding has really gone up, or if it just gives the illusion of that, and we take on more projects and burn ourselves out?

agumonkey: A blend of both. You do create more, but the goalposts are always one more step away.ps: it's strange that YouTubers are talking about the same thing. People in different dev circles. Agentic feels like doom ide scroll.

irishcoffee: Sounds similar to a slot machine. How odd…

dminor: On the contrary, you can solve the tree problem with money. There are nurseries that sell mature trees -- most people though will not choose to spend $20k on a tree.

hshsiejensjsj: This is nitpicking his point.But anyhow, you can buy large-ish burlapped trees but they aren’t as healthy, often die, and nothing close to a 100+ yr old estate oak tree or a decades old rose garden. You just can’t make it faster, transplanting plants that old will kill them.

ErroneousBosh: > I do wonder if productivity with AI coding has really gone up, or if it just gives the illusion of that, and we take on more projects and burn ourselves out?It definitely hasn't for me. I spent about an hour today trying to use AI to write something fairly simple and I'm still no further forward.I don't understand what problem AI is supposed to solve in software development.

ghurtado: > I don't understand what problem AI is supposed to solve in software development.When Russians invaded Germany during WWII, some of them (who had never seen a toilet) thought that toilets were advanced potato washing machines, and were rightfully pissed when their potatoes were flushed away and didn't come back.Sounds like you're feeling a similar frustration with your problem.

dminor: You're moving the goalposts on his poor analogy :)Most of the trees do just fine, and these nurseries will typically provide a warranty.

ghurtado: > I do wonder if productivity with AI coding has really gone upHere's the thing: we never had a remotely sane way to measure productivity of a software engineer for reasons that we all understand, and we don't have it now.Even if we had it, it's not the sort of thing that management would even use: they decide how productive you are based on completely unrelated criteria, like willingness to work long hours and keeping your mouth shut when you disagree.If you ask those types whether productivity has gone up with AI, they'll probably say something like "of course, we were able to let go a third of our programmers and nothing really seems to have changed""Productivity" became a poisoned word the moment that the suits realized what a useful weapon it was, and that it was impossible to challenge.