Discussion

What Being Ripped Off for $35k Taught Me

gnfargbl: > A contract is toilet paperIt isn't, but you can't get blood from a stone and squeezing costs money.It sounds like the entity that the contract is with has no real assets and/or is based in a jurisdiction which is hard to enforce judgements in. That's a case where you need to get paid up-front, which is the real lesson in this article.

BowBun: All this for a $35K contract, that sucks.

wewewedxfgdf: Be paid or don't work.I am so deadly serious - do not continue working if your invoices are late.You don't have to be a jerk about it, just explain to your primary contact that you need to be paid and you pick up tools again when the money has arrived.BUT it is on YOU to properly negotiate reasonable payment terms. And if you don;t know or don't trust the client then require payment in advance until a stronger commercial relationship can be settled in. Do not be a baby - go research business contracts and payment terms.Do not be afraid to lose business from companies that are squeamish about paying you - in fact actively avoid such companies.

fontain: “A contract is toilet paper”A little hyperbolic, but more accurate than not when laypeople think about contracts.A contract isn’t a magic spell, it is a declaration of shared understanding that can be used for clarity and in legal proceedings.If you think of a contract as a way to ensure you get what you agreed, yes, it is toilet paper, because a contract doesn’t remove counterparty risk.

magicalhippo: > Do not be afraid to lose business from companies that are squeamish about paying you - in fact actively avoid such companies.My boss said that the ones who have negotiated the best deals are the ones that are late paying, complain about just about every bill and will write angry letters when my boss index adjust pricing.He said it taught him to never offer a really good deal for a regular customer.

blitzar: In a fight between a piece of toilet paper backed by millions in legal spending vs a rock solid contract backed by nothing the toilet paper (even if it is used toilet paper) will win every single time.

eckesicle: We’ve also learned this lesson the hard way. These are now the clauses we require in every project we do:- Payment is due X days after receipt of invoice, or immediately after the consultant has addressed any quality issues, whichever is sooner- Late payment shall incur interest at 8% above the BoE base rate and a late fee of 100 GBP as per the UK Late Payment Legislation. Partial payments on invoices shall apply to late fees, interest, and then principal, in that order.- In the event of a late payment the invoice for the next deliverable shall immediately fall due.- The consultant shall be entitled to shift deadlines on deliverables in the event of a late payment as a result of any work disruption, without incurring any liability.- Payment shall be made in X currency, or an exchange rate at X date on Oanda.com shall apply.- The client is responsible for any bank fees incurred by their, or any intermediary bank. In the event of a SWIFT transaction it shall be made with the OUR payment code.- The jurisdiction in the event of a conflict shall be England and Wales. Neither party shall be bound by arbitration.- The client and consultant shall both indemnify the other up to the total value of the contract and shall not under any circumstance be liable beyond X GBP.We also no longer share downloadable links of our deliverables until they are paid up. They get a view/comment only link for reports/data etc.We’ve found that clients that aren’t willing to accept these terms won’t pay you either way.We determine the net days on the invoice based on the credit rating of the client. Ironically, the good clients pay within 2-3 days normally, and the difficult ones are very “long tail”. About 1% of contracts tend to fully or partially default on their payments.We’re in a particularly credit poor industry but our average delay due to late payment is 23 days. Those clients where we stop delivery pay on average 11 days sooner than those contracts where we don’t stop delivery.This is based on around 2,000 invoices sent over the last 5 years.

eckesicle: Oh and another lesson! Ensuring that each deliverable invoice is small enough that it falls under the simplified claims procedure (in the UK it’s 10,000 pounds) greatly simplifies collection.It costs something like 80 quid to file for recovery in court and in our experience invoices are immediately paid up when a “Letter before action” is sent.You burn the relationship, but arguably you probably don’t want it anyway.

for_i_in_range: Who are they?

sva_: I don't want to name what my quick Google search revealed, but if you search for augmented reality bus Beijing there aren't many options and it fits the authors characterization of their fleet consisting of ~20 buses.

bob1029: I've started operating in really granular units of work. Like less than $1000 per. Cash on delivery. This won't work with all clients and all jobs, but there are places where it does work very well. Advantages include being able to avoid paper contracts altogether. Verbal agreements and a 4 column xlsx that is reviewed monthly are all that seem to be required with some of my clients.If I don't get paid for one day of work, I will probably get over it in a few hours. If I don't get paid for six months of work, we will have a serious problem. The tighter and more incremental we can make the delivery process, the less likely anyone gets screwed.If a party is pushing hard for long-term contracts or large up-front sums of payment, I would walk away from that transaction unless there was a literal golden goose sitting in their lap.

the_snooze: A professional knows what they're worth and what they need to deliver. On-time payment according on an agreed-upon schedule is table stakes. That's the most fundamental requirement. Nothing happens without that.

rwmj: What's an "AR bus"? How can augmented reality windows work on a bus unless you are (a) tracking the passenger's head and (b) there's only one passenger?

post-it: Screens outside the windows (not on the windows) can provide parallax, no need to track heads. However, in this case:> They were attempting to pull off AR effects on the transparent OLED windows of the bus without accounting for lens distortion, field of view, parallax, occlusion, etc., and were frustrated and mystified when things didn’t appear to line up. They were completely naive to what depth and scale cues are and how to deploy them.

balbladsaf1231: > A contract is toilet paperno it isn't. why you did not sue them? success rate of international arbitrage (New York Convention) proces into China is 90% success rate. USA/EU companies who sue Chineses companies in China for breach of contract seem to be winning rates. Enforcement of USA curt orders do not need to go thorugh Chinese courts again, and are enforced by local authorities (local sharks) with success rate of 80% for foreign firms suing chinese firms. fees are also fairly low. case is straightfoward.if author went and sue, likely he would get his money back.

throwaway98797: > End clients can’t tell the difference between these bozos and me. I don’t know what to do with that information but it feels bad.this is only getting worse with ai.all the artifacts of good work are there but none of the depth.

jfrbfbreudh: No longer a contractor but I used to offer a 10-15% discount for paying upfront. Almost every client took this deal. Earned a little less but never lost sleep over payments.

fred_is_fred: He says "trust your gut" about 12 times, but the whole lead up has 0 mention that he was worried he would not get paid. His only gut feelings seemed to be around tech issues.

billnad: Yes, I guess also trust the situation when it looks completely wrong. your gut is not lying when it sees that as well

xyzelement: The fact that this is so many words makes me worry the author underappreciated the main lesson: risk exposure.When you go out of pocket - you are out of pocket and the risk is all yours. If that one thing was different then all the remaining risk is on the client - they don't want to do version contr - ok cool you still get paid.Usually when you have to pay in to get paid out (outside of a direct investment scenario) it's a scam. The people who fall for the Nigeria Prince thing are operating the same way.

carlosjobim: There's no such thing as a company temporarily being in dire straits. These kind of companies are always in dire straits and crisis - it's a business tactic to not deliver and not pay. Just stay away, whether you're a customer, a contractor, an employee or if they want to be your customer.

InMice: > I missed the month of May with my 2-year-old kid. My wife cared for a 2-year-old alone.The weirdest part to me, receive a call and just get up and go? Priorities? Did you write this blog post from the doghouse?

close04: Reads to me like the author is trying to elicit some empathy. It just sounds like he was just fine leaving his family for a job. Not getting paid couldn’t have factored into that decision.

0x3f: > It just sounds like he was just fine leaving his family for a job.Or... maybe he needs income to exist.

ian_d: Evergreen advice from the design side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U

lnsru: I am also trying to set granular milestones and get paid every 1000€. Not provide 20000€ work and then start looking for my money. I can live with a loss of 1000€, but missing 20000€ will impact negatively my mortgage and investment plan.

apt-apt-apt-apt: Sometimes you just have to get scammed to be able to recognize scams. Seems obvious to outsiders, but can be hard to see when you're in it.Some favorites:- No way they would actually screw me over! We're buds/they got me tiger balm/they paid some/I did them a solid- Thin veneer of safe fallbacks that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Legal or other 'repercussions'- Endless delays and excuses (though it's usually too late by this point)

rglover: Never do anything on faith or as a handshake deal. Always ensure you get paid (hint: escrow is kryptonite for weasels). Trust everyone, just not the devil inside them.Also, mandatory: https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1

andy99: I don’t agree with this, using your gut and judging risk / reward is an important part of being in business. There is always risk, and it’s important to limit it, but it’s also important to take some smart chances.

DataDaoDe: Sadly this is true and lesson anyone who has worked freelance has probably learned - either that or I'd wager they no longer do freelance.Its easy to say don't be afraid to lose business, but when you're starting out, the economy is rough or all you have are the one or two clients, that's a different matter entirely.One thing I've learned is that you always have to do the leg work, you can't assume someone will do the right thing or keep their word.Develop a system where even bad clients, can't do too much damage i.e. upfront deposits, milestone-based payments. You have to control cash flow risks, if you are gonna take risks know what risks you're taking and when to get out.

cainxinth: I have a friend who retired but still does some contract work. They were on salary their whole career and are not used to sending invoices and tracking down payments. One of their clients was late paying and my friend wasn't concerned, but I encouraged them to be diligent about insisting on being paid on time. I have been a freelancer for over a decade and in my experience, the further away you get from a bill, the less real it becomes to the person who owes it. The start forgetting what the project even was, or worse, start questioning why they even have to pay for it.

InMice: He doesnt provide any context for that if so and if you look around the site, doesn't seem like the case at all. More like he just decided on the phone something interested him enough to bounce indefinitely.

ycarechildren: The same founders who require employees to work 24/7/365 while they jack off to Hentai all day are the same ones who don't pay:HockeyStack, Greptile, Velt all had problems paying me and all required 7 day a week, overnight, etc.

moduspol: And also: political organizations and churches always must pay up front.

avoidyc: Worked in the SF tech scene since 2010, and so many founders who I found through YC/HN and AngelList failed to pay me over the years.Often paid late, but FIVE times, I never got paid at all, one time it was several thousands over the course of months and I almost pursued it in court, but in the end I took the L.It's always these incubator types, they're the absolute worst clients. They have the cash in the bank too, they often just forget or feel entitled and don't want to back down.NEVER work for a YC founder.

stavros: I'm not sure that's the best takeaway here, in that it gets the causation wrong. It's not the deal that made the customer bad, it's that the bad customer insisted on getting a deal, whereas a good customer usually knows what quality costs and is prepared to pay.The takeaway here is probably that the fix isn't just "never discount", but it's to screen for the kind of customer who treats a good deal as an invitation to strengthen the relationship.

magicalhippo: > It's not the deal that made the customer bad, it's that the bad customer insisted on getting a dealThat was indeed the point, guess I conveyed it in a poor way.

fmx: > Ironically, the good clients pay within 2-3 days normally, and the difficult ones are very “long tail”.Why ironically? Isn't that exactly what you'd expect?

FabHK: Can you elaborate? It seems to me that unless the screens are that far outside that they are where the target object is, two people that are offset laterally wrt the target object would have to be displayed something that's offset on the screen.

b8: There's not any incentives to pay you when they're in China and there's no legal recourse from the US. Even in the US suing is often times not worth it economically and getting someone to pay after a win is painful too if they don't just file bankruptcy. Escrow or upfront only is the best way to go.

jancsika: > The faith was that if they could’t pay, they’d let me know because I was actively digging their asses out of a hole they’d dug, and doing so tirelessly and professionally, without complaint.I get what the author is saying here. But it's a bad idea to treat one's work team with deep communal devotion in this way, as if they are a kind of dysfunctional family-- or, in the author's case, apparently higher in status than real family.Doing this without proper remuneration creates a market distortion, and that is bad for capitalism.

awongh: I feel like it's easy in hindsight to say some tough sounding advice in the form of "be a hard-ass", but idk, I feel like there are plenty of real life cases that contradict this advice- taking a chance on a referral to work on something you find interesting. Of course the big-money clients will be fine with a hard-line stance and they have money to pay at the end, but that work tends to be less interesting.OTOH, one other clear subtext of the story is the "savior" attitude of a lot of tech people, who think that, if they weren't using version control before, think, "oh, I'll just tell them about this great thing, and because it's much better they will definitely listen to me and implement it - it's only logical". But the harsh reality is that "better" things won't affect an org that went along that far and dug themselves that deep.Never underestimate an org's ability to shoot itself in the foot, even if you think you know better. That includes getting your money from them.

freediddy: When you walk into a shitshow like this, the first thing you do is secure your payments. Anyone who is in such bad shape like how OP described it means that they are desperate, and desperate people will do and say anything to get help.It is most likely going to not pay anyone so you need to make sure you're paid above and beyond anything else otherwise walk.

notquitebuddy: You forgot the middleground where there are thousands of laid off people who can do your exact job and undercut you etc.These founders hire/fire through hundreds of us, they don't give a shit.If you say 1 thing they don't like they go to the next.