Discussion
Passengers who refuse to use headphones can now be kicked off United flights
keiferski: I first interpreted the title as meaning you must use the cheapo free headphones and aren’t allowed to use your own.
dmitrygr: Yes! Now do the same on beaches, busses, streets. Same punishment: banishment from the area.
osti: During flights? Sounds a bit harsh.
quietsegfault: NO TICKET
SilverElfin: We need to also ban people taking calls on speaker in public places like cafes or trains.
irishcoffee: I don’t think United airlines has the authority to do that.That is to say, do you really want a federal law passed about this? I vote we go with social shaming. Worked for cigarettes.
lagniappe: Join the conversation, works every time.
raggi: Ok, but how about kicking sick people off of flights, particularly trans continental?
nexxuz: NB4 they're called out for being racist
SilverElfin: I often see younger people in parks near me blasting loud music on speakers. It’s so disrespectful to those looking for a peaceful place. Especially when they’re playing explicit rap music with everyone’s families and children around.
wolvoleo: Yeah or people on bikes with a boombox. They do it because it's illegal to cycle with earphones in in these parts. But it creates its own problem of course.
throwaway894345: Seems like this flew right over a few heads.
chisel192: > During flights? Sounds a bit harsh.Sounds harsh to you.Let the market decide.Vote with your wallet and fly a different airline.
integralid: Either you missed the joke or I missed your sarcasm. I read GP as a joke: being literally kicked out of a flight in air is a death sentence, which is a bit harsh penalty indeed.
saint11: But kicking someone off mid-flight at high altitude is still a bit harsh. I hope they give them parachutes at least.
gumby271: Bet it won't happen twice though.
mikkupikku: It didn't really work well with cigs until govs started banning smoking in restaurants, bars, etc. That said, the shaming was important for setting the social stage for such legal bans.
mikkupikku: At cruising altitude, I hope.
lokar: You should be able to report them to apple and google, lifetime smart phone ban.
pjmlp: Is this really a thing?!? Blasting the others with unwanted noise.I never been in a flight, or train across Europe where passengers showed just lack of respect for the others.The only ones pumping anything loud, on trains or busses, usually get quickly pointed down by other passengers, personal or security.Ah, and then there are the rebellious kids or gangs, as the other exception, which usually don't take flights anyway.
mikkupikku: In America, a small number of people derive pleasure from being disruptive to everybody, and blasting music on public transit with captive audiences is a very "traditional" way of fucking with people and expressing your broad contempt for their society. I'd estimate that maybe one in five times you get on a city bus in America, you'll encounter somebody like this.Very rarely does anybody call them out or otherwise try to reign it in, because you're as likely as not to be physically attacked and in America, the odds of bystanders coming to your rescue are... Not zero, but not great.
JumpCrisscross: I’ve absolutely seen this nonsense in the UK.
mikkupikku: Doesn't surprise me, but I'm only speaking from my experience in America.
dmd: NO TICKET!
cobbzilla: Have you ever tried to sleep while the person next to you watches a movie at full volume?
furyofantares: Yeah, it sucks. I agree with you, they should be brutally murdered.
nxpnsv: That's too harsh, a regular murder would suffice.
LaurensBER: 20%? That's a bit insane. This does happen in Europe but is heavily looked down up on and usually quickly corrected.On the other hand I did get a chewing out from an older guy for having a conversation with friends on a train once, so some people take it perhaps a bit too serious.
HPsquared: Only if they paid extra at check-in.
ashwinnair99: Airlines have been quietly expanding what they can remove you for. This isn't really about headphones. It's about how much discretion crew have now and how little recourse you have at 35,000 feet.
bigstrat2003: I don't really want that. But I do sometimes fantasize about revoking some people's ability to use speakerphone or reply-all.
gspr: I've definitely experienced this on public transit in cities in several different countries here in Europe. It's not an everyday experience, but it definitely happens.
JumpCrisscross: > how about kicking sick people off of flightsDifficult for the airline to do given the myriad of health privacy adjacents.
sebastiennight: What if we asked the President to give us a quick rundown of each passenger's health?
HPsquared: I assume it's about blasting others with noise, not company sponsored headphones.
lelanthran: > That's too harsh, a regular murder would suffice.Correct. Kicking someone off during a flight and not giving them a parachute counts as a regular murder...
hallole: I don't think I'd have the wherewithal to jump in and do something if I were a bystander. I'm not the sort to throw hands, I don't carry, and these disruptive types are already a bit feral.I'm not sure it's contempt they're expressing, or if they're expressing anything at all. There really are people who enjoy and defend it, too; "it's just a guy playing music, mind your own business." Truly alien.
paxys: Good, now do the same for public transit.
sharkweek: Just put them in row 24 on a Boeing 737 max and let the problem take care of itself.
CalRobert: Happens elsewhere too. Can be an issue in Dutch trains
slg: >is a very "traditional" way of fucking with people and expressing your broad contempt for their society.Motivated in large part as a response to society saying fuck them. I'm not defending assholes being assholes, but I think what we have been seeing in the US over the last 5 or 10 years is classic collapse of the social contract stuff. The less a society cares about its people the less its people will care about the rest of society.
mikkupikku: I get what you're saying, but blasting music on buses has been a thing since boom-boxes were invented, it's nothing new. I am also not inclined to blame systems instead of individuals because most people with the same background of injustice will choose to respond to that injustice by being better than it. It's only a very small number of people being disruptive like this, while the number of people with fair and understandable grievances against society is massive.
austin-cheney: I agree with the policy but this is such a mild offense. Just a few years ago in the US there was an epidemic of drunk people savagely beating flight attendants.People who cannot figure out how to share use of shared space should lose access to those places.
gib444: Yup. Eg guys getting on Thameslink services in south London, walking right up to the area behind the driver's cab and and start creating disturbance. Driver stops the train and has a go at them if he's feeling in the mood...
0x3f: The airlines could alway remove you for literally any reason. Even if it was discriminatory or otherwise illegal, you'd still definitely be getting off the plane, at least.
andrewflnr: I'm going to vote with my wallet by moving United up my priority list.
Findecanor: I've experienced it all over Europe. Trains with reserved seats tend to have a separate "silent car" for this reason.
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS: > and in America, the odds of bystanders coming to your rescue are... Not zero, but not greatYes, because there's been a recent push to more heavily punish good Samaritans than perpetrators. When good men get metaphorically crucified for helping, they stop helping.If that seems like a common sense outcome of such policies, you're right. But as we've seen time and again, common sense is not a flower that grows in everyone's garden.
Hamuko: Harsh, but fair.
Hamuko: Local trains are full of them.
balderdash: Of course they do - they modified their contract of carriage - which you basically agree to why buy a flight (https://www.united.com/en/us/fly/contract-of-carriage.html) it’s the same mechanism they use to deny you boarding if you are barefoot etc.
standardUser: I've found that looking the person in the eye and giving a quick "hey, forget your headphones?" sometimes does the trick, and has yet to start a fight. Everyone has to act in ways they are comfortable with - but mass inaction is what creates space for this shitty behavior in the first place.
johnfn: I mean, you are painting it as some moralistic judgement, but if you’re asking me for on one hand listening to some annoying music, and on the other hand having some chance (however slight) of bodily injury, knife wound, or whatever… I know which one I am going to choose.
andy99: Pretty sure on planes this is more ignorance than malice. It’s self absorbed people that are too selfish to consider someone else might not want to hear what they’re watching, rather than some deliberate anti society thing.Regardless, no punishment is too harsh, this should be considered the equivalent of lighting up a cigarette on a plane.
sowbug: Another angle is kids who have been given a tablet as a pacifier. Their parents are often on autopilot, having checked out months or years earlier.On topic (and discussed already on HN): https://github.com/Pankajtanwarbanna/stfu
gnabgib: Discussion (18 points, 15 days ago, 15 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47276399
binarymax: I want to echo the top comment in that post. Apple removing the headphone jack from iPhones was absolutely criminal.
wanderingstan: My go-to technique has been to offer the offender a pair of headphones, saying something to insinuate that they must forgotten theirs or be too poor to afford them. Most of the time they say “oh I have headphones!” and then realize that they’ve outed themselves. (I stockpile the free headphones from gyms or airplanes, or get the $2 ones from AliExpress)
standardUser: They should be stripped of all citizenship and left to live out their life roaming the airport. But this is a start.
verdverm: Requisite link to satirical study"Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma when jumping from aircraft: randomized controlled trial"https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094
balderdash: It is - there are three groups of people that do this generally the completely self absorbed, people from places where it’s culturally acceptable, and people that like the feeling of empowerment that comes from a inconveniencing others (the same people that will walk out into traffic with no light / crosswalk)
callamdelaney: How is walking over a road without a light inconveniencing anyone? I’ll cross the road when it’s clear. I don’t blast music in public places though.
JumpCrisscross: > How is walking over a road without a light inconveniencing anyone?They said “walk out into traffic.” That’s rude. You should wait for a signal or a break in the flow so nobody has to brake for you.
JumpCrisscross: > It’s so disrespectful to those looking for a peaceful placeIdk, they’re not looking for “a peaceful place” and are using a public space without damaging it. Nobody is forced to use the park at the same time as them. This seems like a difference in preferences which is fine.
which: That same line of reasoning could apply to music on planes. No one really needs to use a particular airline at a particular time or use a public park at any given time. It ceases to be a public place if a small group of people can de facto monopolize it by making it unpleasant for most other people to be there.James Q. Wilson talked about this problem a long time... and why standard neighborhood shaming cannot really police it. Maybe there is an increasingly different set of norms among different generations which is why you have a breakdown in manners and even high school kids from affluent areas hitting "devious licks." Because the sanctions employed are subtle, informal, and delicate, not everyone is equally vulnerable to everyone else’s discipline. Furthermore, if there is not a generally shared agreement as to appropriate standards of conduct, these sanctions will be inadequate to correct such deviations as occur. A slight departure from a norm is set right by a casual remark; a commitment to a different norm is very hard to alter, unless, of course, the deviant party is “eager to fit in,” in which case he is not committed to the different norm at all but simply looking for signs as to what the preferred norms may be.
JumpCrisscross: > same line of reasoning could apply to music on planesYou can’t leave a plane. And planes aren’t for recreation. I like quiet parks. But parks aren’t some natural creation, they’re entirely manmade. I’m okay with other people having different thoughts on how to recreate.> Maybe there is an increasingly different set of norms among different generationsOlder people have been complaining about kids with boomboxes and skateboards for generations.
e40: The idea someone doesn’t know they bothering everyone around them is absurd. It is 100% malice.
Fezzik: A lot of people don’t get a lot of things; you know the adage about stupidity being a more likely cause than malice. Just last week I had to explain to a grown adult why spitting on the sauna floor was disgusting and rude to the other gym members. He was shocked.
SOLAR_FIELDS: Now explain why it wouldn’t also be fair to kick people off that were loudly emitting disgusting flatulence. Is it because they “might” not have control over it? Can I not claim I also “might” not have the control over my impulsive desire to listen to music or that I can’t use headphones for a medical issue?I mean such a thing I would say equally detracts from the flying experience, so why not also kick those people off?
bluecalm: My experience is the opposite. People blast music or other sounds on flights all the time. In Europe it's also very common to smoke in public, including beaches, restaurants, areas around building entrances. Literring is also very common.Even Switzerland is dirty because cigarette buts are everywhere. It's just that some % of the population are inconsiderate assholes and only heavy enforcement works vs than. Unfortunately this is something our current society is not willing to do.
lesuorac: Getting pedantic now but depending on the circumstances the traffic is supposed to have stopped for you.Assuming there is no paint on the road an (unmarked) crosswalk may still exist [1] and drivers are supposed to yield to a pedestrian in a marked or unmarked crosswalk [2].[1]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....[2]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
gregatragenet3: Getting more pedantic, less than 1pct of the population is in California.Pretty clear parent meant people who cross against the light / mid-block when there is a crossing 50ft away / stepping in front of the one car on the road when they could look up for one second and step out behind that car etc. in other words the people who put off 'main character' vibes.
oidar: Bluetooth headphones too?
INTPenis: I'm behind this 100%.I got a SARS virus flying to Udon Thani in 2019. We were seated next to two thai guys who were so sick they could barely sit up straight. We offered them help and treats because they looked like they were about to vomit.Plane lands, next day I'm sick. I was laid up for 2 weeks with fever, the shits, and I had a weird spontaneous cough for over 1 month after I got better.I bet most of that plane got sick, and it was so damn avoidable.
IncreasePosts: The problem is there can he huge penalties for not flying when you booked. You might not be able to rebook your flight or hotel or days off so you're stuck either getting everyone sick or perhaps being out thousands of dollars or not going on vacation at all.
baal80spam: I can guarantee you that's not only America's problem.
mothballed: When young children are on airplanes you cheat in whatever way you can.
charcircuit: I experienced this in real life and this creature was unable to understand the bus driver telling her to stop. It's like they didn't understand English nor social signals. To me it seemed to stem from a lack of intelligence than from intentionally being malicious.
schrodinger: Depending on where you live it may not really be relatable to you, but living in NYC -- there are people that will intentionally jay walk on a green light and even _stare you down_ knowing that you will stop and let them pass.People jay walk when there's no traffic all the time, that's totally fine. This is a totally different act of passive aggression.
isthatafact: > "But parks aren’t some natural creation, they’re entirely manmade."? That does not at all match my experience with parks.But besides that, I am not sure how it would support your argument.
NikolaNovak: I am astonished how many people now use speakerphone as their default interaction. On subway, go train, in grocery stores, on the streets, sometimes even in the office, they blast their conversations with zero care.And so yes, I've definitely seen and experienced people watching inane tiktoks on speaker in subway or bus or airplane. It's the epitome of complete lack of empathy or self awareness to me, but I guess that's the way culture is going.
lostlogin: Phone makers deleted the speaker is the ‘courage’ I want.
echelon: I need speakerphone when I'm home alone and attempting to be on a phone call while doing other things. Some of those calls are even about instructing me to look for something, so it necessitates me to be moving about. Speakerphone is an incredibly useful utility.Don't take functionality away because of a few bad actors. That'd be like getting rid of drones because a few people are assholes.Put rules in place to correct the bad behavior. Kicking them off planes seems fair.
jghn: Perhaps people can cheat while still giving them headphones or turning devices on silent mode?
petermcneeley: Obligatory Spock https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr82dZpCr48
jghn: I can't remember the last time I've been on a flight, train, or bus where there wasn't at least one person playing audio of some sort without headphones.
hxorr: This sounds like a USA problem..
zeroonetwothree: I have definitely seen people use speakers in countries other than the USA.
pjmlp: Yes, but that isn't a flight.
gspr: But you said people on busses and trains doing this get shut down. My experience is they don't.
tayo42: What's the threshold for sick?It'll never happen becasue everything around travel is to hard to reschedule.
general1465: On one hand I understand why this exists, but on the other hand, I don't think it is even necessary. There is so much noise during the flight, and combined with lower atmospheric pressure I can barely hear what steward standing next to me is saying.
Aurornis: Agree. It’s funny to see comments trying to act like this never happens in Europe, only America.
dataflow: [delayed]
Aurornis: Walking into traffic in an undesignated crossing is rude (and illegal). Likewise with trying to cross at an intersection when traffic has the green light.But when there’s a designated crossing area, it’s the responsibility of traffic to stop. Pedestrians should not stand and wait at the intersection for a break in traffic because it’s a confusing signal to drivers. If you’re standing at a designated crosswalk you need to be either signaling your intent to cross or moving away from the crosswalk
dataflow: I've seen it everywhere except airplanes. I don't recall ever seeing it on planes. How often have you seen that? Do passengers or flight attendants do anything? How does the person respond?
y1n0: I’m sure it is, much of the time. But I also believe many people are just completely self absorbed and devoid of empathy.
plagiarist: I am self-absorbed and devoid of empathy but it is still easy to logically deduce that other people don't want to hear my games, videos, or phone calls.
bluefirebrand: Being devoid of empathy would mean you may realize that people don't want to hear your shit, but you wouldn't care what other people want
