Discussion
One item purchased, Ten emails
dinkleberg: In contrast I’m a fan of the overeager messages for actual updates like these presented.It is just when after said delivery that I then end up on a mailing list where I get sent something seemingly daily from a single vendor that I’m less pleased.
floren: I strongly suspect that "Do not send me marketing emails" at checkout time ACTUALLY means "Wait 6 months before sending me marketing emails, when I might plausibly forget that I checked this box", because I always do my best to opt out of mailing lists and I always seem to start getting stuff anyway 6-12 months after making a purchase. The Silicon Valley model of consent strikes again.
dazc: Wait until you see the tracking data that led to your purchase.
john_strinlai: i am no fan of spam. but i am totally fine (and expect, really) to receive email #s 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 8 on this 10 point list.- 1 confirms my order was received, and im not left thinking i ordered something when it wasnt processed.- 3, 4, 6, 7 are all good for ensuring my order didnt get lost in the process and lets me schedule my day if needed.- proof of delivery (8) is good for records, disputes, or just knowing that i should pop over to my house on lunch so the item isnt sitting outside all day.however, i do use my own domain and unique addresses per store (e.g. "walmart@example.com" if i need a walmart account for whatever reason), so that if/when companies start doing the "we miss you", "please rate us", "seriously, please rate us, you havent yet :(" or whatever, i can immediately bin it.
swah: Same. Also if one created an account before that order that would be another 3 or 4 emails.What pisses me the most is getting the same information over Whatsapp too - just a few minutes earlier!
sva_: You'd love AliExpress. There's probably 20-25 emails per order as there are so many tracking steps. But I like it, just automatically move them to a folder.
ryandrake: All I need when I buy something online is the shipping tracking number. That's it. I don't need an invoice. What am I going to do with that, print it out and stare at it? I don't need constant tracking updates. I can get these myself with the tracking number. I don't need to know it was delivered (again, tracking number, and I can also just look on the porch with my eyeballs). I don't need any of the other sales-spam that always seems to accompany these orders. An online merchant shouldn't even need my E-mail address. I should be able to click "buy" and the next page shows me the tracking number. That's the only relationship I want with you!
wakamoleguy: Is there a technical limitation why these never seem to be grouped into a thread? I generally appreciate the updates on my package, but I also value a tidy inbox.
moepstar: Ugh... same feelings here... looking at you, eBay.
wafflemaker: Never give out your email. Just hand out proxy addresses. Have a couple in your wallet\phone casing for when you need to give one right away without time to generate it.No spam. Or if you get some, one click to stop receiving mail from a specific proxy.Takes some using to, and some work each time you give out an email address. But so does sifting through a ton of spam, because you didn't care enough to only give out a proxy address.
skinner927: Edit: egg on my face. The article’s author suggested the same service. Heh. Anyways…I highly recommend a service like SimpleLogin. It allows for dynamic wildcards:- store1@my.domain - whatever@my.domain - @my.domainAll gets fwd to my real email and I can kill any address from my email client by unsubscribing (or login to the SimpleLogin interface)You can go further and use subdomains or pattern matching to send things to different addresses like your spouse and friends. e.g.- @friend.my.domain -> friend@gmail.com - *@spouse.my.domain -> babe@example.comNot affiliated, just really happy with the service
scorpionfeet: Same here. Back in 1999 buying something of a yahoo market website was a crapshoot and you didn’t know what was going on till you got it. I have no issue with overzealous updates. But after that; go away! I know you exist.
EdNutting: Same here - almost identical for me.
floren: I documented the 13+ emails I received over the course of trying to buy a wallet: https://jfloren.net/b/2022/12/12/0Everybody just assumes they're the only thing hitting your inbox, like I don't also have "engagement" messages from 3 other stores I bought shit from two years back, plus PG&E trying to convince me to install a meter that can turn off my A/C remotely, plus Nextdoor trying to update me because somebody thinks they heard a gunshot...
rjh29: > Everybody just assumes they're the only thing hitting your inboxThey know your inbox has 100s of competing senders and their message could get lost, that's why they spam. A large number of people don't curate their inbox, never unsubscribe and just make do reading 20% of their messages.Same with phone notifications.
Yokohiii: without email spam, there wasn't any reason to curate a mailbox.
dostick: Actually, four emails, not ten. Author writes as if it’s some conspiracy of sellers and shipping companies to maximise the number of emails. Each sends with any excuse they have. The email is treated as a drop box of transactional notes that business sends to customers inbox so customer can always find that info if they would have a need. It’s not frivolous sending that we need to fix but some standard of “receipt” folders, like Gmail auto folders in half-assed way. So these emails bypass inbox directly to special folder. And it should have a standard name so customer service can say “look in your Receipts folder”.And Two “We received your order” is unnecessary, as well as “create account”. But if they send those it must be working? Or they send even is only handful of people click on them?
arjie: I actually really enjoy getting this sequence of emails but I use Gmail’s auto categorization so it just goes in the “Updates” folder and gets auto-forwarded to my claw-like so it’s not super interrupty. I prefer to have the full trace on my side rather than on the provider side because their site might go down and so on.I can see why people get annoyed. It’s just the alternative that I really dislike.This way I can do all analysis on my own side or search for status on my side. I prefer to own the data and have it pushed in a timely manner.
thoughtpalette: I've been using Proton Mail and iOS (through iCloud+) for this. Almost every purchase online goes through a proxy, and once the item is delivered, the email deleted.This has a side benefit of being able to sign up to the popup modals for like, 10-20% off a first purchase.Some sites do not parse the emails correctly though (if they contain periods, etc) and it's also hard to order track.I find it's worth the trouble to have a relatively quiet inbox.
hmokiguess: Apple hide my email was a great solution to this, I feel like we need a proper open source alternative. Basically a relay inbox that is ephemeral and you can discard once you’re done.
fhdkweig: The worst abusers are the ones that mix vital emails with marketing and fluff. In the US you have to deal with the Social Security Administration your entire adult life. You need to deal with them while paying into the program during the working years and also while cashing out in retirement. So you can't just ignore communications with them, but yet most emails are fluff like holiday greetings, reminders not to be scammed (which are repeats of the same advice they gave in all previous emails).Banks also do this, but they at least use the same subject lines that I can auto-filter.
gubo97000: problem that would be solved if clients were a little better at grouping emails
SunshineTheCat: Doordash has become better, but they use to do the same thing with notifications:Your order has been placed! > Your order is being prepared! > Bob is on route to pick up your order! Bob is waiting for your order! Message from Bob: I'm waiting for your order! > Your order has been picked up! > Message from Bob: I'm on my way! > Your order is approaching! > Your order has arrived! > Your order was dropped off! > Please rate your dasher! > etc etc etcThe only reason I never completely turned off notifications was because there was one I actually needed: my order was dropped off...
Yokohiii: Which mailing frontend for normies has threaded views?
garciansmith: This actually misses some, namely the "your order is out for delivery" email which precedes the "your order is delivered one". And some places might split up the delivery into parts so you get even more despite being delivered together (in some cases in the same box!).Worse is if they require a phone number then text you each and every step as well as email you. Some places you can "opt out" of texting but then the next order will just repeat the process.All I want is an order confirmed email, and an order shipped email with the tracking number. I get maybe some people want a "delivered" email but I don't even want that, I'll see it, it can sit there an hour it's ok; if it's something really important I'll be looking at the tracking anyhow.And while I'm complaining, it sure would be great to get rid of the syrupy language some use: "Get excited!!! Your order is being packed!!!!" Yes, I am glad I will receive a bunch of paper towels, but it is, I can assure you, not exciting.
patwolf: I gave up on inbox zero a long time ago, so it isn't the emails themselves that bother me as much as the notifications that I get through my phone and smartwatch.I now run each notification through an LLM and give it instructions on what to filter out. I accidentally disabled it recently and was startled at the flood of notifications--like when you browse the internet without an ad blocker and forget how bad it is.
SoftTalker: Just emails? I get all that plus half a dozen text messages.
evulhotdog: STOP
variaga: Permanently block this number? [yes] [no]
plorg: I'm particularly fond of the senders who know there are nominally laws about spam, so they just label every piece of marketing and customer retention garbage as pertaining to your user account, or they layer some subscription-related language over a promotion al email. I uploaded photos to a printing service over a decade ago and long since unsubscribed from their marketing lists. Two months ago they started sending me bi-weekly "reminders" that my old photos would be purged soon but offering me a discount subscription to their cloud storage. They then sent me at least three weekly reminders. The thing is, none of the links in the email would send me to the page to download old information (which it turns out I had already done years ago, presumably on prompt of some other spam) or information on deleting that content myself.The other classic of the genre is mailing list software that stores opt-out preferences separate of customer account data such that when they move to a different marketing service or their retention policy tolls out you start getting spam again, exactly 5 years after you opted out.
miki123211: Poland is always like this, for "good" reasons. The American shopping experience is a breath of fresh air in comparison.Our workflow is often something like this:1. "Verify your account" (before you buy).2. Order has been accepted.3. [From the payment gateway, we typically don't do credit cards for online transactions]: Payment required.4. [Your bank, via a push notification]: Please confirm this transaction, typical EU overregulation 3D Secure crap.5. [Your bank, Push]: Card payment.6. [Payment gateway, after you're redirected to their site and complete payment] Payment succeeded.7. [Store]: We have received your payment.8. [Store, one business day later]: Here's the invoice you requested. Spoiler, no invoice was actually requested.9. [Store]: Here's the tracking number for your parcel.10. [Parcel Delivery app, you practically need one to open parcel lockers, our favorite method for getting almost anything, if you don't want to deal with the hassle of SMS]: Your parcel has been registered.10. [Parcel app]: Your parcel is on the way.11. [Parcel app] Your parcel is ready for collection.12. [Store]: Your package has been delivered.Most of these are no-opt-out.That list doesn't include any marketing, "how did you like your Order" or "Please review this Seller" emails. If there's another intermediary in the mix, like Allegro (our local Amazon / eBay alternative that most people order from), there can sometimes be a bunch more.
burningChrome: Texting is the new email. I have about a half dozen or more email addresses and very few of them get used nowadays.The funny thing is I just moved all my email over to Fairmail and did several other things to try and "degoogle" my life. The funny thing was as soon as I got Fairmail installed, I finally realized how much spam was hitting even my gmail inboxes, but since gmail and outlook both filter them into separate folders, I never saw them. Fairmail has the ability to do the same, but it was really good for me to go through and unsubscribe and block the rest.Now I barely get any spam from any of my accounts so life is a lot easier now. Another example of how these companies make it easy to not do anything and just have it out of sight.
themafia: I use a wildcard proxy. Like msg-BUSINESS@example.com. Each business gets it's own alias. I can just generate them at the point of sale without any prior configuration.If a particular business annoys me it's quite easy to start managing their emails separately.Incredibly useful for when a company gets acquired and their old transactional email database is turned into a marketing database.
NotGMan: Another reason for this is for the seller to protect themselves and give themselves proof against scumbag customers who then lie to get the product for free etc...The more emails and info you can demonstrate that you sent to the customer the more proof you have in case they try to scam you.
aorth: I highly recommend using an email alias service. The author mentions SimpleLogin. I've been using Firefox Relay for a few years and it's great!
a3w: Machines write emails, people don't.So it is just "mark as read" every day or week, and move on skimming mail senders, and rarely any headings, and nearly never message bodies.Or for such a company, make a filter and clear out the subfolder every half year or when check only there is an issue with an order.
pembrook: This, plus the fact if they don't overcommunicate and send you 20 transactional emails (eg. "your order is still on its way!") they'll have people filing credit card disputes and BBB complaints, blasting support screaming this-site-is-a-scam-where-is-my-order!?? over a two day shipping delay.
Esophagus4: That is likely a violation of CAN-SPAM.Dual purpose emails (transactional + advertising) are generally still considered as commercial and are usually covered.It would have to be enforced, but still.Sometimes for those I just log in and switch my email to some throwaway or I setup a rule in my inbox to immediately junk it.
username223: Don’t unsubscribe - that’s a signal of a live email address. Add a rule filing their domain straight to trash.
rjh29: In the UK there are legal guarantees, the unsubscribe button nearly always works.
dlcarrier: Assuming the message actually contains information, and not a login link, lots of email updates is great. It means I automatically get a local copy of the message stored, so if I want to look it up, I have it immediately available, regardless of my current network connectivity.I use Gmail's support for aliases, by putting a '+' symbol after my user name, followed by a alias, so that the messages can be easily filtered. I then add the alias to Gmail's server-side filtering to move the message to an IMAP folder for messages from vendors/distributors.
gib444: [delayed]
gib444: [delayed]
marcosdumay: Hum... Except for the 2 emails asking for feedback, I don't see any problem with that.Do you get overwhelmed by emails tracking items you brought? You expect stores not to communicate with you about active contracts you've already paid for and have actions pending from their part? Why exactly do you think that's a problem?
gbalduzzi: Because I never engage with them and they clutter my inbox, especially if I make more than one purchase in the same period.One email, with the receipt and the tracking number is enough for me, everything else is just noise to me.I totally agree that it is not an important problem: it is a nitpick, but that is why I think it is a problem.
bigbuppo: It's better than it was back in the 90s. Imagine that, but as physical mail. Oh, and they sent a separate copy to your billing contact, which was at the same address, and was also you.
iamwpj: I'll just suggest -- I don't think they have A/B tested the right amount of emails. There was a time when companies optimized this sort of stuff, but the cost of researching that vs. just sending every opportunistic email possible is too great. This doesn't really matter except that we give companies too much credit for stuff like this. They're just kind of...doing stuff, for better or worse.
linsomniac: I just ordered a dishwasher from Lowes, and that translated to 16 text messages from them, including asking if my address was correct, asking 3 times if the delivery date worked for me. I appreciated 2 of them: Your delivery window is 9:30-1:30, you are stop 7, the driver just finished the delivery before you and is headed your way.There's a right number of times to text me about a delivery that is going exactly as planned, and 16 is not that number.
jasonpeacock: Just wait until you _don't_ buy something...Throw some items in your cart and enjoy all the emails reminding you to check out, look at similar items, share with your friends, and use discounts before they expire!
unfitted2545: I love the combination of Posteo and Bitwarden. Any email I use has a "+random letters and numbers" generated for that entry to combat spam. If I need better privacy separation, I have my main email with my name, then an alias with random letters and numbers.
