Discussion

tjpnz: I hit the jackpot and got twins. Everyone assumes that you must really have this stuff worked out, but we're still learning new things every day even after four years. The protective instinct is different with doubles. It's not just the safety of one child that you think about, but how it would impact the other one if the worst were to pass.

Daneel_: I also had kids, and while I love my kids I haven’t loved spending time with my kids. This will hopefully change as they age, but the first six years have so far been very much a drag on my life and productivity, and not much else. They haven’t provided fulfilment, and they haven’t provided satisfaction. Some joy is there from time to time, definitely, but nothing in the way the author describes. Happiness for me typically starts after my kids are in bed or when I can escape them during work hours. My wife finds great happiness in our children, and I find happiness in that, but I’m desperately waiting for my kids to be old enough that I only need to spend time with them instead of constantly caring for them. Sorry if this is a bit of a dark comment, but I just wanted to say it’s not always the experience this author had, even if it seems common. Edit: Generally, I regret having kids, but I also can’t change that decision and I would never back away from my choice - that’s completely unfair to them, as well as my wife. Such is life. I try to keep looking forward to when they’re older as a way of staying positive.I truly do give my kids my all though, and they have a wonderful life and are loved and cared for in all senses of those words. They’re great kids and I give them everything necessary to be a great dad.

iamwil: [delayed]

Foobar8568: I enjoyed much more the first 6 years than the following 6 ones.Seeing them grow was fun, seeing them turning teenagers is a pain.

yanis_t: Having kids is a gift. But this is one of these kinds of knowledge that once you know you immediately can't explain to others who don't.

Cerium: A good friend of mine holds the belief that "having friends with kids is better than having kids of your own", and I definitely feel the "can't explain" part - there is an unexplainable reality when you have kids of your own.

toomuchtodo: Do not despair, I felt the same. Mine are halfway to 18, still feel the same, unsure if it changes. I love them, just not the experience. I have friends who feel the same, so I/we are not alone.I tell others not to do it unless they are prepared to suffer. You won't know if its for you until you've already gone through the one way door. I wish others luck. For the unlucky, I wish grit and stoicism.

fastball: [delayed]

rybosworld: I think this is a fairly common experience but many people are afraid to admit it.

alexchantavy: My favorite part is how pg says how kids made him less ambitious, but then:“On the other hand, what kind of wimpy ambition do you have if it won't survive having kids? Do you have so little to spare?”

camillomiller: It’s called having kid while rich so you can hire nannies, tho

fdghrtbrt: I understand the idea but I take issue with the wording.I CAN explain to others who don't. It's just that most of the time others aren't interested in hearing.

corry: This is one of my favourites from PG, not least because it's a bit antithetical to what I perceive as a growing trend among smart, ambitious people (for whom children might represent friction, inconvenience, etc)... as well as folks for whom COL is making the question irrelevant due to practical concerns.Actually, it's really striking that even in America -- the developed country with the #1 highest birthrate -- still falls below the replacement rate. What is it that's inversely correlated between growing wealth and having children? Especially since it was likely to opposite for most of human history? (i.e. large families were a sign of wealth and power).PS - I can't resist offering my own experience as a parent - what a treasure to have discovered that I'm capable of such love, and to get to watch this love transform me into a better person than who I was before. This kind of love demands everything of you, but through it you discover a truer and stronger version of yourself too.

throwaway132448: Having kids is the one thing almost every organism on earth does, and is really not that interesting.

grahamburger: The great thing about kids is that just when you start to miss their toddler temper tantrums, they start having teenage temper tantrums!

ozarkerD: I can definitely relate. There's nights my wife and I get to bed and sorta just look at eachother and go "what the hell was that". Those days are hard.I find the days that I forget myself and throw myself into trying to be a good dad are the days I find joy in fatherhood. Weekends especially I try to forget the stresses of work and productivity and everything else and try to spend as much time with them as possible. Playing, teaching, and learning with them.Not saying it's universal. Just a datapoint from me.

throwaway132448: > And while having kids may be warping my present judgement, it hasn't overwritten my memory. I remember perfectly well what life was like before.It's funny that he actually believes this.

globular-toast: Taking drugs is great too. But I know not everyone will do it. You won't get to experience everything so just be glad about the things you do get to.I'm so glad I've avoided kids.

jasonkester: Before having kids, I expected it to be this huge life changing thing. That it would effectively end the part of my life where I was free to do whatever I wanted, and start the part where I was just Daddy, doing nothing except serving my childrens' needs.But that didn't happen. We just carried on being Jason and his partner, but with a baby in tow.I had spent most of my 30s cramming in as much "living" as possible, to make sure I'd stocked away a lifetime supply of it. After all, I'd probably never get another chance to travel for long periods, keep up with climbing, and all that other stuff that Independent Jason could do.But it was all for naught. We just packed the kid along and went traveling anyway. He had eleven stamps in his passport by his first birthday.Life is just as much fun as ever. But now we have some kids to play with.

drfloyd51: Love. Kids. Marriage. Divorce. Heartbreak. Death of a close partner.Things you can’t explain to other people. But others with the experience just know.

tayo42: Travel with a baby isn't that bad.I think people struggle with losing their identity when they no longer get long periods of focus time or can participate in their hobbies with the dedication they would like.

loloquwowndueo: Depends on the baby. Some are nightmarish.That’s the main thing - each family and each child are different, so it’s kind of hard to base your decision on what you see and hear from others.

bcrosby95: Having kids becomes a lot easier if you can do the things you enjoy with them. For me that includes all sorts of stuff such as D&D, warhammer, painting miniatures, drawing, magic the gathering, board games, etc. I also include them when I have to fix something around the house or some random electronic device that broke.If the only thing you can enjoy is adult stuff or working then you might have a rougher time at it if you don't find joy in the pure act of raising a kid.

hosel: This is truly eye opening that people feel this way about their children. I appreciate the honesty, but I pity your children. Kids can be annoying and a handful sometimes but you don’t enjoy spending time with them? Getting to experience the world again through your children is one of life’s greatest gifts and it’s just an inconvenience to you.

jen729w: > is one of life’s greatest giftsThis is stated as some sort of universal truth.It is not. Please don’t make OP feel bad, whether you mean to or not.

gib444: I admire your frank honesty> Generally, I regret having kidsPlease don't ever, ever let them know this, or even allow them to figure it out. Especially before they're at least ~30 and able to begin to understand.

hotfrost: I would really like to have kids, but I don’t have my act together. I also feel like my partner is not suitable or capable of properly taking care of our kids. Feels pretty awful and am scared to not have any kids as I grow older. I worked hard to get a good relationship with my partner, and now that we have one I worry kids will only ruin what we have now

microtonal: Interesting, my experience has been the opposite. Before getting kids, I thought that I would only enjoy having kids once they were the age where you could have conversations with them, etc., that the first one or two years were more something that mothers would like. But for me it was not like that at all, aside from some sleepless nights, it's so cool to be part of them discovering the world.have so far been very much a drag on my life and productivity, and not much elseAt some point when our kid was still young, I started working 4/5 FTE, taking the afternoons off after ~14:00. I feel like that provided a lot of mental space. Since I was working part-time, I did not feel bad/guilty about not working the afternoons and I would be focused on being very productive from 8:30 to 14:00. The free hours were for doing stuff together or accommodating their playdates (picking up from school, ensuring the house doesn't get torn down).Now they are an age where they want to do things without parents, so I am working full-time again, but do miss those early days where she would be with me in her seat on my bike and we'd cycle to the city and she'd be singing aloud from joy.But every person is different and I think that there are also parents that start enjoying having kids more when they are older. So, your years may still come :).dark commentMy dark comment would be: we are all learning on the job and I feel like I could do some things better with the experience I have now.

bayarearefugee: As a 52 year old I specifically avoided having kids.For decades I have been convinced that we are speed-running into a global environmental crisis that we will continue to ignore until it is far too late and this will result in associated resources wars and I never wanted to doom other people into having to live through that.I sincerely hope for the sake of those of you who made a different choice that I turn out to have been overly doomerist, but watching the Trump 2.0 years play out I now think that I wasn't doomerist enough.

ivan_gammel: That could be something to put on Tinder profile.

toomuchtodo: Sure, give me a verified badge on dating marketplace apps (Feeld, Fetlife in my case) based on my fMRI imaging interpretation. Use it as input for the matching algo. Way more useful than simply putting "neurodivergent" in a profile imho. Adjacent to "If your policy doesn't exist in code, it doesn't exist."

raincole: I mean, the birth rate is decreasing everywhere for a reason.

loloquwowndueo: “A” reason?Given the post you’re replying to, it seems you’re implying a specific reason, but what if it’s a different one? How about “I love children but having kids is super expensive”?

markus_zhang: I have a ~6 years old boy and I'm quite neutral about that -- that is, if I somehow go back to a few years ago, I may or may not go forth for a kid -- which was my attitude back then anyway.There are some upside, but they are...tangible. The downside is concrete and solid. From hindsight, having a kid has nothing to do with my long-term objectives, but since I dial back the time, I'll try to be at least a median good father -- I have gotten the financials covered, and I'm pretty sure in that part I'm better than the median, but for the focus part I'm not sure.

FunnyLookinHat: I think it's important to share the difficult / hard experiences of having kids as much as the good ones. I've noticed that there is a huge bias towards only sharing the good moments and white-washing all of the bad as something you can "laugh about later." To be frank, not enough people were honest with me about what it would be like having kids before I had them - and I was incredibly upset when I realized that (several years into being a parent).I now make it a point to be honest with people when they ask "Should we have kids?" and tell them about how hard it can be, etc. Most importantly, I tell people that they shouldn't have kids unless they would still want to do it if their experience doesn't land in the middle of the bell curve. We tend to romanticize the decision, and expect that everything "just gets even better" with kids. There are all sorts of ways your experience can be less than ideal. Unless you're evaluating your decision with those potential outcomes in mind, you're doing yourself, your partner, and even your future children a disservice.

jorisboris: I see a lot of different opinions here, from very positive to very negative.I think the answer is, it's both.When I was an employee sometimes I was happy, like when a promotion was lurking, and sometimes I was unhappy and stressed, when getting fired, when facing deadlines, ....But when I started working for myself the amplitude of emotions became way stronger, every week I would fluctuate between feeling doomed forever or feeling like a genius.Life with and without kids is the same: The emotional highs of having kids are way higher than anything I experienced without kids, but sometimes the lows are very low.

mkapoor26: How come this article by PG is trending today?

fdghrtbrt: I would like to hear in what sense you love your kids, given that "he first six years have so far been very much a drag on my life and productivity, and not much else. They haven’t provided fulfilment, and they haven’t provided satisfaction. (...) Happiness for me typically starts after my kids are in bed or when I can escape them during work hours."Do you say "I love my kids" because that's what everybody says, or is there any truth in it?EDIT: Just to be 100% clear: I mean absolutely no judgement. I'm not going to tell you off or try to change your mind. I ask out of pure curiosity.

Daneel_: I go above and beyond to give them a great life - to care about providing them with a rich education, as well as a wide variety of life experiences, to immerse them in quality time with friends and family, to travel with them and spend time amongst various cultures and amongst nature. I’m there for them whenever they need me, and also when they don’t. I take the time to give genuine answers, to feed their curiosity, to make them great people. I give them the tools to explore things on their own and foster their independence. I also encourage risk taking while supporting them when it doesn’t work out.Critically: I give them my full attention.I could choose to spend all that mental effort on myself, but I choose to spend it on them. That’s as good a demonstration of love as any, in my book anyway.Edit: no offence taken! I didn’t interpret it that way at all.

Daneel_: I would never let them think I regret them - that’s such a cruel thing to inflict upon them, and it’s certainly not their fault. I also don’t regret the joy it’s brought my wife.I regret the loss of my mental energy and personal time, but not them, if that makes sense.

JeremyHerrman: I'm in the thick of it right now as a serial founder with a 5 and a 1 year old. One thing I'm surprised paulg didn't touch on is how much it can evolve your relationship with your partner (for the better!).Watching my wife have special moments with our kids fills my heart like nothing else.Seeing her be an amazing mom is like watching your cofounder take on a completely new role outside of their previous experience and crush it. Except it's even better since you're in love with them and have all these biological/chemical signals to help kick that in high gear.

b0rtb0rt: having kids and raising them unlocks completely new human skill trees that were previously hidden from youpeople who choose to be child free are not complete human beings

gk1: Shaming like this doesn’t change people’s minds, it just makes them hide their feelings and introduces new or even greater feelings of guilt. The opposite of what you (hopefully) intended.

nxor2: Ironically, you are telling the above commenter to not comment as they did, so that op can comment as he did. If one person is allowed to share their thoughts than so is the other.

chzblck: Love seinfield's quote about kids -"One of the nice things God does, is that he doesn't let people who don't have kids know what they're missing"

BigTTYGothGF: One of the nice things about not having teenage daughters is you don't have to worry about Jerry Seinfeld hanging around.

synergy20: I have a few kids, raising them is a mix of good and bad, like everything else. it took a toll on my career, pushed my temper to the edge, and stressed me out all these 20+ years, but I also enjoyed many moments. it does not go away when they got older by the way, it's a life long strong bond, at different phases there are different challenges.If I have a second life, I don't know what to do though, I probably will first make enough money before having kids at least.

jasonkester: I probably will first make enough money before having kids at least.I think you’ve hit the key difference.I waited until I was 40 before having kids, and it just feels like I’m doing it on easy mode.We had time and money sorted out, and tons of free baby stuff donated from all our friends who had done it already.It’s still lots of work, but you’re at a place in life where you can handle it. I can’t imagine trying to raise kids in my 20s, with my crappy stressful office job and no money in my little studio apartment.Hats off to anybody who can do that.

peacebeard: Everyone is different, and even though I don't share your experience, I don't view yours as either good or bad, it just is what it is. My experience is different but I'm not planning on ever telling anyone "Oh don't worry about it just have kids it'll be the best experience of your life" in blind faith.

dominotw: just go for it. there is never a really good time to have a kid.

lukevp: Thank you for posting this. It’s totally understandable and believable that you simultaneously love them and regret some things about it. There’s this insane pressure in our society to never acknowledge the toll that kids have and to never speak out about this. I remember when this article was first posted and how I received it, like I was wrong for not being sure about kids, and that some change would come over me when I had them. Truth is, that doesn’t happen with everyone. Then the world tries to gaslight those people who don’t feel that way into feeling like they’re broken somehow.I’m sure you love your kids and take great care of them, and it’s not your fault that you feel this way.It would benefit all of us if this taboo was lifted, so that we could speak truthfully about the impact of kids on families, and maybe then we’d have to provide more support and encouragement to convince people to have them. Not everyone has free daycare from their grandparents or a large social network to babysit or the finances that make having a child less of a burden.

tayo42: That's funny becasue if I could do it again I'd have my kids younger.

chzblck: You'll never feel ready but you will always be ready. One of my biggest regrets is not having kids sooner

GlibMonkeyDeath: Caveat emptor. I am a grandparent now, so I think I have some perspective on this.Of course we love our kids, and we had (and still have) a lot of good times with them. But kids can really break your life and marriage, too - amongst my peers I can't tell you how many have a struggling young adult kid or two (with relatively serious mental or physical health problems), with no resolution in sight.So stay lucky - having a child is a wild act of optimism. And if you want kids, don't wait too long. There is never really a good time to have a kid (just different trade-offs), so for the best chances for health, be as young a parent as possible. And men have a biological clock, too: e.g.: https://neurosciencenews.com/genetics-sperm-mutation-neurode...

OnAironaut: There is nothing more narcissistic and selfish than having kids. There is nothing noble about fulfilling your biological imperative to leave a descendant. Quite the opposite, really, it's a rather primitive egoistical desire to somehow continue oneself after death.

chzblck: Probably good you are taking yourself out of the gene pool

drfloyd51: Before kids it was easy to judge bad parents. Then one day with child I found myself due to circumstances in a store way past my child’s bedtime. She was screaming and crying, because it was way past her bedtime.Then I realized… I was now “the bad parent” I had so easily judged.Then it was easy to judge parents with children younger than mine.Until I learned that not all children have the same issues in the same order.Then I learned it’s easier not to judge at all.

phatfish: Badly behaved kids I am more understanding of now (at least the younger ones). But there are defintely easy ways out of problems some parents take that are not good for children.

tayo42: Sure, the default for travel shouldn't be it'll be a nightmare though or impossible.

gib444: > that’s such a cruel thing to inflict upon themIt certainly is. Speaking from personal experience. And he let me know in a very direct and cruel way.

cortesoft: While I have always loved being a dad, I can certainly relate to the things you describe.I will say that a lot of those issues have gotten better as they have gotten older (they are now 10 and almost 7). They don’t require the same level of constant attention that they used to, they are getting more and more interesting to talk to, and have developed interesting personalities and senses of humor.

raincole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility> There is generally an inverse correlation between monetary income and the total fertility rate within and between nations.https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-fam...> In 2021, the birth rate in the United States was highest in families that had under 10,000 U.S. dollars in income per yearAnd a few thousands more links.

dominotw: > How about “I love children but having kids is super expensive”?always surprises me when ppl say this when they clearly observe the opposite in action. whats going on here.

majkinetor: You are overdoing it. Don't know who is your role model, but that behavior is IMO what leads to that outcome.Show mostly by example, not by direct mentoring.What rich education and various cultures for 6-year-olds (or less)? That is simply irrelevant at that age and logistics of it just makes you hate everything. Do you even take your kids to dozen of arbitrary chosen classes?Tone it down, everybody will feel better and you won't have to fake it. Happy parent is more important for family than robo parent.

matsemann: One shared his own experience, the other is a direct attack on his kids and the parent. Quite a big difference. The "I pity your kids" is straight up vile.

Daneel_: It’s not forced, and we do show by example. I also disagree that they’re too young to be immersed in a love for education, culture, and people. Oh and music too. We listen to a lot of music (for fun!).My family and friends are multi-cultural so they’re naturally exposed to several cultures, for example. It’s also important to my wife and I as the world itself is multi-cultural, so having an appreciation that different people live their lives differently is important. We lead by example simply by living in a multi-cultural life and embracing it.Take that same approach and apply it across the rest of the points I made. Nothing is forced, I promise.

Daneel_: I hope you’re in a position where you can have an honest conversation about it with your partner. I’ve come to realise over time that honest and open communication is the most critical thing in any relationship. I really hope it works out for you both!

fdghrtbrt: What a rude thing to say. Different people raise their kids differently. There's nothing wrong with that answer.

aogaili: he is coping so hard

majkinetor: It's you who are being rude by not allowing opinions. I am trying to help. I might be right or wrong or somewhere in between (which is all perfectly OK) but its on OP to judge it by himself if my words have any meaning for him. I said them because I noticed the pattern around me. Please stop with the drama.

fdghrtbrt: You're the one making drama. "nooo kids don't need a robot parent" lol