Discussion

Fatbikes are wreaking havoc in Sydney's wealthy beach suburbs

ggm: We're plagued by these, and by souped up electric trail bikes. Kids far too young to die or get quadriplegia, blasting around in traffic. Usually with no sense of time and place. By law they are meant to be 25kph speed capped and require pedalling. They are doing 50pkh plus and take off like a scalded cat, doing wheelies.I'm terrified for my own safety and theirs. I can't see this ending well.

14: I also hate it when kids have fun

ggm: Look I get it, I deserve an "ok boomer" but they have got at BEST cycle protection, certainly not a full face helmet, rarely shoes even. It's a disaster waiting to happen. There were 14 deaths in Queensland in 2025 for this class of vehicle, way above normal level.

LargoLasskhyfv: You know? Since about 1980 I did wheelies too, on my road bicycle. And up to 70kph on flat grounds for up to two minutes. Then having to go down to 55 to 60, which I could hold up for an hour, depending on weather, fitness (varying). No helmet, ever.Also no broken bones, or having caused others to crash. Annoyances maybe, but such is youth :-)I'm of the opinion that this "disaster waiting to happen" thinking is a disaster by itself. I may concede that some of these kids are too reckless too often to be good for them, because e-bikes make it too easy to go that fast, without having developed the ability to handle these speeds safely first, or knowing where not to(sharp curves, rain, wet leafs, sand, fine gravel, etc(Did I mention I rode iced roads in winter?)).But in principle the ride is getting more stable at higher speeds, because gyroscopically stabilized by the spinning wheels.I see it as a darwinian filter of fitness. Sieving out stupid. Just like that.If you don't give youth the chance to navigate that, there will be more and more unfit.No amount of laws will change that.

smackeyacky: 100% bullshit you did those speeds unless you’re Phil anderson

LargoLasskhyfv: If you say so? Shrug

NkVczPkybiXICG: 55kph is about how fast Remco Evenepoel just did a flat 12km time trial in the UAE tour, to win it. I think you’re being a touch overconfident if you think you can hold that for an hour.

LargoLasskhyfv: I didn't care that much about these things at first, until others noticed the distances on my speedometer, or have seen me in action, when we had the same routes, speeding by them without even noticing them. Except when they honked their horn, or later talked to me about that.All I can say is that this disturbed me, so I made sure the speedometer wasn't lying to me. By doing many rounds on an empty running track, to check if the distance counting is right. Confirmed by measuring trip distances on maps, and comparing the stopped times for that. Further confirmed by comparing car-trip times by "progressive" drivers between locations, and mine. It all checks out. No matter if mostly flat, or hilly terrain.(Nowadays even in alpine terrain, going from about 2500m altitude up to 4400m, and got cited for reckless driving, because doing 90kph downhill where only 15mph were allowed. Shrug)Oh! And no doping, btw...

slau: I don’t think I’ve ever met someone claiming to be able to easily maintain 70 km/h. Maintaining 50 km/h for an hour puts you well into top professional territory, especially if riding solo.There’s basically no chance you got to that level without serious training, coaching, and a lot of experience.That is a very different situation from just using a credit card and being able to zip down the road at 50-60 km/h. People have been killed by these fat bikes (as in, a pedestrian being struck), because fat bikes are significantly heavier than road bikes, and kids with no experience drive them in places where pedestrians do occur.I doubt you were pulling 50+ km/h in the city centre, or on the beach promenade. Yet this is what we see with fat bikes.The laws aren’t designed to protect the rider. They’re designed to protect the uninvolved bystanders who just want to enjoy a stroll.

LargoLasskhyfv: Yeah. I'm hearing that over and over again :-)The thing is, I lived where I had several routes of about 2km length with several steep inclines of 12% in them, right from my door. And not much else to do. So I did that, first on a road-bicycle with 26" rims for youths, which I grew out of very fast.Got a bigger frame with 27 x1 1/4 then.Now when that was new to me, I've been KO after riding up there, even needed to step of the bike, some times. But I persisted. Got myself some 'mountain gears' for the rear hub(ten speed only, so five mountain gears back there).That helped. But I grew out of these, too! Because I didn't need them anymore! Installed the normal ones back, and thundered uphill as if it was nothing, being just warmed up enough to thunder over the mostly flat, and excellently paved ways going through the forest on the high plateau.Giving it all, until absolute exhaustion, pulsating tunnelvision, nearly 'grey-out'. Again and again. By myself. No coaching whatsoever. Until I didn't have these grey-outs anymore. I later discovered this is called "Interval Training".Topped that by installing cranks two centimeters longer than usual, and installing 'speed gearing' front and right, to get an even higher transmission ratio.Where only 3 to 4 speeds were really usable for me. The rest I had no use for(most of the times). I started mostly in the eight gear, carefully, to not burn rubber, because tires were expensive for me. Didn't help much though, because even with that gearing the back wheel slipped when I pushed down hard from stand in tenth gear.So wheelie it was, because why not? Whoo hoo hoo!> I doubt you were pulling 50+ km/h in the city centreOf course I've been, to show off! :) Sustained for my way to school for about 10km, without breaking a sweat, not arriving wet and stinky. Even in bad weather. Because that took me 15 minutes max, and public transport would have taken me 45 minutes to an hour. I tested. And refused.(Imagine the surprised faces of some girls in my class, seeing me arriving in time, after I waved to them in the tram they rode, at the start of the trip(Heart Heart Heart beating sooo fast(Theirs). Ooooo wow!(Giggle))At the time I made up to 300km per day, which I didn't even notice at first, because all I ever cared for was moving the 'needle' to the right as far as possible for as long as I could. A neighbor looking at my speedometer noticed that, and of course couldn't believe it :-)Now that wasn't the rule, but it 'happened' again and again. 150km to 200km was more normal.When I've been out of money for spare parts I ran 'almost-marathon' up there, just 39km instead of the usual 42.x. Sometimes two times, after a short pause, and a meal, back home. I didn't feel good until I had that sort of exercise. Shrug?One could say my power was equivalent to a light motorcycle with up to 60cc. 50cc I always won against. 80cc I've been chanceless against, except if the rider switched and coupled clumsily, but not for long, they always won.What else? I could jump over closed turnpikes, and the hoods of (police)cars. Still can do, btw.> The laws aren’t designed to protect the rider. They’re designed to protect the uninvolved bystanders who just want to enjoy a stroll.I actively avoided pedestrians, meaning going slow in the forest on weekends, or not going fast at all along the river. Only during bad weather when there only were few people, or none at all.Racing the https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinpfeil_(Schiff)Also not harassing them in the pedestrian zones downtown, just slowly curving around them, sitting upright, hands off the handlebar. Sometimes from still afar(when they were standing in clusters with no way around them), to not disturb them by ringing the bell, instead saying loudly ring, ring and making "parting the water" motions with my hands :-)Maybe it's a cultural thing?Had different relations with most car drivers, though. They always honking, me always flipping them the bird, because I've been just going within their flow, instead of the curb, without forcing them to slow down, so fuck off? (Yes, I knew about dead/blind angle already, and rode accordingly)With all that said let me intone Darth Vader here: "I find your lack of faith disturbing!"/now playing Born to be wild...

K0balt: Holy shit. Beast.

LargoLasskhyfv: Not really. Just 75+kg to 85kg at about 176cm to 181cm. Still grew up at the beginning.I may look athletic, but am no Hulk.

blitzar: Children of wealthy people, living in wealthy beach suburbs, wreaking havoc in their own neighbourhood.They might be coming in from the slums of Vaucluse.

expedition32: Fatbikes are not expensive. The Chinese jumped on this market.In my own country you can frequently see 12 year old boys and girls on fatbikes. And they go fast. When a fatbike collides with a pedestrian the end result is not pretty.

ghaff: During the warmer months I regularly come into town for a sidewalk dinner in an east coast city in the US. There's a protected bike lane and the combination of vehicles (and pedestrians crossing) is a bit terrifying--as is the fact that stopping at the red light for the next cross street is inconsistent at best.

madaxe_again: I saw a young lady on a velocipede travelling at a positively indecent speed, wearing trousers, and several horses were rather badly startled. The moral degeneracy of the younger generation knows no bounds.

anon_e-moose: Didn't Australia recently ban social media for under 16s?Sounds like kids are rediscovering fun and socialization in the outdoors.Isn't this an unintended byproduct of what Australians wanted and legislated for?They really could have added some bike lanes though.

rmccue: This predates the social media laws which only started in December.

impossiblefork: I actually don't think this looks that bad. I think it might even be good for them. If young people are eschewing helmets, I can see making a helmet law, but even if they take over a lane of traffic, they seem to be going in such large groups, that if they'd been in cars or other vehicles, moving in the most orderly manner imaginable, they'd be blocking the intersection just as effectively.Consequently I think this is mostly fine. The big problems are the helmet issue and I also think they might need knee protection. 60 km/h is a bit high if they're made for 25 km/h, but most of this stuff is achievable with ordinary bicycles.

rmccue: > If young people are eschewing helmets, I can see making a helmet lawAustralia already has mandatory helmet laws for cycling; the person quoted is pointing out that they’re breaking the law.

boringg: This comment thread is hilarious. Split down the line of the people who are like (let kids be kids, let them have fun) and the other group being concerned about the general welfare of everyone else.I suspect the kids do whatever they want group dont have any experience with the actual nuisance complaint but provide a knee jerk reaction. Id wager its not dissimilar to the delivery ebike nuisance in nyc - which is problematic.

andrepd: If ebikes are a nuisance or a danger then cars weighing 100× more should be even more concerning. Yet cars are a "fact of life" and bikes are a "nuisance" somehow... Go figure.

jakecopp: Without excusing the behaviour around illegal electric motorbikes, there has also been absolutely shocking media coverage in Australia on road deaths. Here's a summary of a particularly bad week of coverage: https://jakecoppinger.com/2025/12/why-wont-the-media-report-...Did you notice this article doesn't have a single mention of safe bike lanes? In Australia we spend ~0.2% of our transport budget on cycling and walking infrastructure - and see very low rates of cycling (and terrible safety outcomes) as a result. See stats on the Australian situation at https://australiancyclewaystats.jakecoppinger.com/The BBC would have done well to read up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_Council_of_Australi... before seeking quotes.

arthurbrown: As someone who's been observing how the media treats cycling in this city closely since the dark days of Ducan Gay, this is absolutely what is happening.Thank you for posting this and for taking the time to document it in detail.

wzdd: Over the top as mandatory registration of cyclists may be, he has a point on shared bike lanes. They're awful both for cyclists and pedestrians. From a cyclist's perspective you have a narrow path filled with effectively-immobile obstacles; from a pedestrian's you have a machine coming at you at speed which could cause you significant harm.

andrepd: Many thousands of people die every day in car crashes and this is thought to be just a fact of life as natural as the sun rising. Suddenly a couple of teenagers doing wheelies is a menace.Just build some fucking bike lanes, all you need is literally concrete blocks and green paint. Spend a fraction of what you spend on highway widenings on this and your problem is gone.

jorisboris: Amsterdam also declared war against fatbikes. There are plenty of electrical bikes in Amsterdam, but only fatbikes are the problem according to the Amsterdam City Government.It seems they are targeted as a proxy for the people who drive them, which are generally younger people.Maybe every year we should ban the car brands with most accidents. Kinda the same idea?

bartvk: You probably joke but I'm an avid motorcycle rider and when I ride in the 30 km/h (20 mph) zones in my city, these kids race past me. No matter it scares the shit out of me, when an accident occurs then the injuries will be horrific.I'm not against them, to be sure. I don't know the solution, really. Maybe campaign for helmets, but how effective is that going to be?

blitzar: > I don't know the solutionFat middle aged men could start riding them or instead of shouting at them as they ride by Karens could cruise past on theirs.That ought to do it.

adaml_623: It seems to have stopped "6 7..." I understand even the British PM helped out with the cringe

cuu508: The current one hour world record is 56.792 km, if you can hold 55-60 km/h for an hour you should give it a go.

jakecopp: > [shared lanes] They're awful both for cyclists and pedestrians.People riding bikes would always prefer a dedicated separated cycleway. Cyclists want to be on the footpath less than people walking want them there - they would only use it because it's safer than the road.What usually happens here (and I assume is common in the US!) is the state transport department veto's taking away space from cars to build a proper bike lane, forcing people and bikes to fight over the scraps of street space left behind.A particularly egregious example of exactly this scenario playing out: https://jakecoppinger.com/2024/09/another-broken-westconnex-...If someone is arguing against shared paths - you should make sure they are arguing for bike lanes too. Otherwise they are not trying to be constructive.

cam_l: I have seen them fall off their bikes in the middle of intersections on more than one occasion, hit people riding on the footpath, more than a few try to bully me off the road, doing dumbarse stunts in the process. One I saw got taken to hospital.The issue is not so much the bikes or where they are riding, it is the brain dead groupthink mentality of a bunch of antisocial little rich boys who haven't been taught basic self preservation.. or what is feels like to be punched in the face on account of doing 50ks on a crowded footpath.

LargoLasskhyfv: I don't really care, as I didn't from the beginning because I've found popular, organized sports unsatisfactory. And Tour de France mostly unimpressive at the times, considering I had a much more heavy bike, and no car with a spare standing by in case of flat tires or other mishaps. I also did most of this in normal traffic, needing to stop at traffic lights, crossings, whatever. And watching out for all the broken glass, all the times.From https://osm.org/go/0GIDMKQGO--?m= tohttps://osm.org/go/0GC~DS4_r?m= in 25 to 30 minutes, depending on weather, traffic, whatever.Maybe gulping down a can of coke, orange juice, isotonic sports drink, in no more than five minutes. Going back, usually 1 to 2 minutes slower, because of wind coming from the south, which is funneled there from within the Rhine valley out into the open "Kölner Bucht"(Bay of Cologne?).Did this at least a few dozen times in this times.Going from https://osm.org/go/0GJGHYJiY?m= tohttps://osm.org/go/0GC~DS4_r?m= again.This time with a classmate on a much better bike, and member of a cycling sports club.In nineteen minutes! Classmate almost collapsed on arrival. Though the first third to quarter of that track goes slightly downhill. Anyway, don't remember the time back, because I didn't want to give my classmate health problems, so we took it slowly.Then, in another temporary 'home turf' for about a year, from here https://osm.org/go/0GI2sXyvp-?m= tohttps://osm.org/go/0GJpBsflN?m= which is very hilly with many steep inclines, ups and downs, on all available routes.Twentyone minutes! Up to 25 on my way back. Did this at least several dozen times in that time. "Progressive" car drivers take 25 to 30 minutes on that route. 'Normies' more like 35 to 40.Also did countless other tours from my first OSM-link to Aachen, Koblenz, Hagen, and up into the Eifel, to the big radio-telescope in Effelsberg, then mostly downhill through curved roads back to the Rhine, and back home along it. Also tours through the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siebengebirge on the other side of the Rhine to Siegen, or just up the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drachenfels_(Siebengebirge) instead of taking the cog-wheeled train ;->All in rather good time, maybe not for the first time, but when I knew the road(s) better, having built up a mental picture of the 'ideal line', hazards, and such.

hagbard_c: Fatbikes are a problem in the Netherlands as well. Th Netherlands, also known as the #1 country - or at least in the top 3, no need to quibble about who comes first - when it comes to creating cycling infrastructure. Bicycle paths everywhere but those don't help against fatbike gangs. They don't care about safe cycling infrastructure, they hardly care about safety - especially other people's safety - at all.

xnx: Did your bike weigh 90 lbs and accelerate to top speed in 4 sec?

LargoLasskhyfv: No. Just 13kg, IIRC. Though I once sped through this curve https://osm.org/go/0GJEvDJAo?m= , on my backwheel only (In a wheelie so to speak), at about 40 to 60kph, having accelerated with a scream of rage on the parking space there. Burning rubber. Almost ran over a female teacher of mine, after that curve. Still wheelieing up, cursing "Shit! Shit! Outta my way! Shit! Sorry!" fast, trying to bring the front wheel down by leaning hard into the handlebar, all in a blur. Still burning rubber. Didn't really work until the next crossing, which I also took with the frontwheel up in the air, but not so high anymore. I still don't get how exactly I did that. Because I havn't done that before. Just feeling impossible rage, and having the urge to get away from there ASAP, or else...I'm just remembering six fast jerking motions, bringing me around that curve on the backwheel only. Instinct, guardian angel, who knows?Rage was expensive. Backtire slick, internal wire netting visible all along. 30 Deutsche Marks gone :-(OTOH I had unforgettable sex with that (sports)teacher a few hours later :-)

Sabinus: It is amusing to me that we had articles about DOGE flagged but this is considered worthy of discussion.

boringg: Thats funny. Non scrupulous ebikers rip through pedestrian sections.And i agree with the other commentator, you obviously dont live in a dense city with e bike delivery.

andrepd: > Non scrupulous ebikers rip through pedestrian sections.You're right. A car driver would never rip through a crosswalk or kill someone.That argument is stupid. Cars kill several times more people than ebikes ever will. It's nonsensical to be worried about a minor issue while treating a much more serious one as a fact of life.> you obviously dont live in a dense city with e bike delivery.Yeah but I do. The thing is I also live in a city with bike infrastructure, so bikes (delivery or not) can move safely without annoying anyone.