Discussion

IS IT A PINT?

jghn: In the US at least it's pretty common to see bars using cheater pints. They look like 16 oz pint glasses but with a few tricks wind up only holding 14 oz

bombcar: In the EU I noticed lots of glasses had markings on the side - if it was full to the line, it was a pint (or liter or whatever).McDonalds cups have a line for ice.

jjgreen: In Yorkshire a short pint will result in "Could you fit a whiskey in there?", "yes of course", "THEN FILL IT WITH BEER"

badgersnake: We’ve had laws requiring landlords to serve standardised pints the UK since 1698. This is not a new problem.

xnorswap: 1985 is the current one: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/72/contentsIt's why all bars will have a little plaque saying what size their shots are. Almost always 25ml these days, but 35ml was common in many places. You're allowed to serve shots of either size but not in the same pub.( edit: Better link: https://www.gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law/sp... )

ch_123: In the UK and Ireland, a pint is 20 oz. (equivalent to just over 19 US ounces), so I always feel cheated by 16 oz. "pint" glasses in the US.

Waterluvian: In Canada (and I’m sure elsewhere) there are surprise inspections where government inspectors show up at petrol stations and see if the pump actually gives you what it claims.I volunteer for the pub equivalent of this.

bluGill: In the US every gas pump I've seen (I have not check the majority of states, but still a good sample) has a sticker on it stating inspections and who runs the state department that inspects them. Usually it is a yearly inspection (at least according to the sticker, maybe they do it more often I don't know)

wodenokoto: > 79.3% of pours were short (under 100% of claimed volume)That is quite surprising. What breweries used to do when I worked in cafes and bars was to paint a mark on the glass and under it write "0.5" (in market that sells in liters and not in pints) and this mark is above[1] the half liter mark. Note that it is without units.Pubs and bars get glasses for cheap or free and the brewery/distributor tries to trick the bar into selling more beer than they expect.[1] We checked using measure cups from the kitchen. Maybe there is a conspiracy to have kitchens use too little ingredients.

steveharing1: Unique idea!

xnorswap: I got poured a pint by a newbie behind the bar at a hotel recently and she looked embarrassed as it was about 40% head, but to her credit she went to fetch the shift supervisor before I said anything.He explained after pouring it better that, even the remaining head (It had ~3/4 inch even after fixing it) might still be met by derision by many customers. "They'd be asking if you would be charging them for just for the half" etc.There's a bit of leeway but you'll quickly hear about it if you short a pint too much.

lucideer: I don't know if other companies do this anywhere but if you live in Ireland. Diageo have roles for people to travel around the country doing precisely this.

arkensaw: ah yes, the guinness vans, I do often see them out and about

loeg: It's not completely uncommon to be offered 16 oz or 20 oz as options in the US. But I see it more at "fast casual" restaurants than bars or more upscale restaurants.

luplex: and crucially, foam has to be above the line.There is some back and forth around whether it's legal to serve beer in traditional ceramic steins, where customers can not verify that the foam really starts above the line.As I understand, it is legal in Germany, but only if there is visible signage that informs customers about their right to pour their beer into a marked standard glass to check the amount. Source (German): https://www.abendblatt.de/incoming/article402102835/wer-hat-...In 1899, an association was formed in Munich to combat fraudulent pouring. It was banned by the Nazis and re-formed in 1970. They went around and measured beers. This post is its spiritual successor. German: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verein_gegen_betr%C3%BCgerisch...

vojtapol: Yes. Americans/Canadians famously can't pour beer properly. If you are pouring a pilsner or really any lager, a head of at least 2 inches is actually correct and absolutely desirable. The way it's poured in Canada (no head) is borderline undrinkable to me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dggKezrSQxI

lucideer: I'm from Ireland, where filling beers precisely up to the brim is practically a religion, & many barmen will even take the glass back & top it up if they see the head diminishing too quickly in the space of time it takes you to pick the freshly poured pint up.One thing that always struck me as odd is how the culture is seemingly the opposite of this in apparent beer meccas like Belgium - not only are the glasses typically much smaller (this is fine) but they also leave massive gaps at the top. The glass capacity is never treated as being close to the rim at all.

philipwhiuk: Kind of.Guinness glasses are exactly a pint, so the Guinness head means you're getting less than a pint of actual beer.This is tolerated/expected and so de facto correct but de jure perhaps not.

vlod: Also in the US (probably due to lack of training and the customer too embarrassed to complaining) tend not to fill it the brim (and so not even 16''). I've seen 2-3 inch heads and asked them to top it up. They look at me as if I've just insulted George Washington.

mcjiggerlog: Well, depending on the type of beer, that's intentional. It's not always the faux-pas that it would be to do this when serving cask ale in the UK.

dghf: This is why I get agitated when Americans claim to use imperial units. If they did, their pints would be the correct size.

bryanrasmussen: surely if that was the claim George Washington would never have had his dreamhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYqfVE-fykk

petesergeant: The only sensible approach here is pint-to-line glasses. I don't want my glass filled to the very top where I'll spill it, I want it filled to the pint line. Sadly in the UK up to 5% of the pint is allowed to be foam, but I'd expect any sensible barman in the UK to top me up to the pint line if I asked, and be apologetic about it.

consp: We call that kind of beer without any head "dead". Measurement here is about two fingers width, and if you do it the first time and screw up it is two fingers in length (second part is of course tounge-in-cheek).

post-it: I'm not sure I understand, why didn't she just top it up?

xnorswap: Who knows, she obviously lacked experience, I guess she just panicked or worried it might be an issue with the barrel rather than her pour?

masfuerte: If an establishment wants to serve drinks with a head they should use glasses with a mark on the side indicating the measure, rather than glasses which need to be brim full. Using the latter style of glass and including a head is just ripping off the customer.

graemep: I did not know about the 35ml is OK too but not both on the same premises rule.

tveita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fill_lineSelling drinks in mislabeled containers should warrant a fraud report to your local consumer protection agency. A crowdsourcing app seems like the wrong tool here.

bombcar: The US is a different place; though I will say that in Europe everything seemed to be right on the line, whereas in the US I'd say that most pours were to the very brim (likely giving me more than advertised).

amonon: Look, I get it. Beer is expensive, these days. Always has been. But I feel like these movements miss the forest for trees.If we mandate beer volume then places that are “shorting” you will just raise the prices. Not to mention the tax on beer that would be required to pay for the inspection service. No one likes feeling like they got less than they paid for, but there’s solution is to take your business elsewhere.Also, you know what really annoys me? When a bartender pulls a pint for me, and it’s up to the brim with no foam. Foam is part of the joy of a crisp beer. It adds aroma and anticipation. If I wanted to drink something with no foam I’d drink a soda. And in my heart of hearts (or stomach if stomachs?) I fear that’s where these arguments lead.

Johnny555: No one likes feeling like they got less than they paid for, but without regulation, how do you know that you got less than you paid for unless you're going to carry around a measuring glass yourself?If the places that were shorting you have to raise prices when they have to give you what you paid for, that's false economy -- you're not saving money, if you want to drink less beer to save money, ask for a smaller glass.

graemep: > No one likes feeling like they got less than they paid for, but there’s solution is to take your business elsewhere.People need to know how much they got. it can be hard to judge, especially as you will be comparing across visits to different places on different days, and different styles of glass, etc.

pmh: > not only are the glasses typically much smaller (this is fine) but they also leave massive gaps at the topI'm wondering if this is due to the prevalence of cask ales vs bottle/keg conditioning. The former is relatively uncommon in Belgium and you want the head from the latter.That said, oversized glassware (e.g. Duvel's tulip) and/or fill lines are also used to accommodate the head while still not cheating the customer out of volume.

bardak: But usually when that is the case they will use glassware that has a 20oz line on the glass with room for the head.

ahofmann: I remember watching the cornetto trilogy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Flavours_Cornetto ) and always wondering why on earth they fill up the glasses up to the brim. It is uncomfortable to transport this way and not spill beer.

consp: A pint in the Netherlands usually is 500ml. In very rare cases, but only in real pubs (not mass market "Irish" pubs) you get an actual pint. So you are cheated out of about ~68ml in that case. Vs the US you get a few ml more.

ch_123: A standard US pint is about 473ml so a US pint is ~95ml less than an imperial pint.

tialaramex: The way they got to the 25/ 35 split involves even more craziness. In England the law said spirits are always measured in sixths of a gill. This entire unit is obsolete, but 1/6 is a tiny bit less than 25ml. Fine.However in Scotland two sizes were common, a fifth of a gill (slightly more generous than England) and a "nip" or quarter of a gill (a lot more generous). If you're used to ordering a "nip" of something and now you get a lot less you'd be very angry! So the 35ml option is there for the kind of Scottish or Irish establishment which would have been used to these larger measures rather than either try to keep the gill (which is a stupid unit nobody else needs) or anger drunk people.I wouldn't be surprised if the "Make a sign" difference was to allow licensed premises to gradually shift to the more profitable, smaller, size. Maybe you change the place you own in Glasgow to 25ml first, and if the locals don't kick off you can try Aberdeen next, otherwise try again in a few years.

twodave: Now this is what the Internet is really supposed to be about.

Spivak: I think your expected outcome is actually the desired one, to kill shrinkflation in favor of actual price increases. When the measures are all the same you can compare apples to apples across different businesses.

OJFord: First sip's at the bar; then you can

eduction: Your pubs kindly return the favor when we order whiskey. As Hunter S Thompson is reported to have quipped in a bar your side of the Atlantic: "What is this, a sample?"

BoxOfRain: That's fair, can't argue with that one.Personally I'd have us use what the Royal Navy used to serve its rum ration in, the half-gill. This is 1/8 of a British pint or 71 millilitres, and the rum would have been a minimum of 54%!Fractional gills were the pre-metric shot measure in the UK, but they were still pretty stingy. 1/6 gill in England, 1/5 or 1/4 gill in Scotland, and 1/4 gill in Northern Ireland.

roxolotl: The solution is in other comments. In the EU glasses are etched with a fill line. Not filled to the mark? You complain.

amonon: That seems very reasonable to me.

amonon: I guess I feel the same way about that as I do about a steak. How do I know that the steak is the 16oz I ordered? Ultimately the most important part is if I found the experience satisfying enough to return, not whether the steak was within .5oz of its stated measurement.

Forgeties79: It’s such a small thing but when a brewery or restaurant featuring beers writes “pint” as an option and gives me a typical US beer glass (shaker I believe) it annoys the hell out of me. Don’t explicitly write “pint” if it isn’t at least north of 15oz. Definitely don’t if the glass literally can’t hold a pint.

jcul: Do they actually call it a pint or just a half litre / large beer?That's seems to be the norm in a lot of mainland Europe.