Discussion

Oracle Files Thousands of H-1B Visa Petitions Amid Mass Layoffs

OrvalWintermute: H1B is generally a giant scam of Labor Arbitrage

pm90: Oracle is a large company. Many of those laid off were outside the US. This is a non-story.

rdtsc: Wherever their major offices are look for newspapers in the small towns nearby advertising for "Software developers for Oracle" all written in the tiniest print, right next to classified that sell used bikes, car parts and other stuff.- "Well, Uncle Sam, we looked so hard in US and nobody answered our job posts, we have to go to ... $othercountry to hire, there is no other way"

toomuchtodo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44880832https://www.jobs.now/https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44892321

simianwords: This whole H1B debacle tells me that people don't like it when employees are not fungible but this sentiment only exists selectively.The H1B i140 petition thing requires you to advertise the job before submitting the petition. How does this work if the employee is not fungible?

some_random: You advertise in small circulation newspapers, I thought this was well known.

cmiles8: I would expect further H1B crackdowns coming. The $100k fee was just the start.

afavour: I disagree, I think the $100k fee was a deliberate move to make sure the yearly allocation is only available to large companies like Oracle and out of reach of smaller startups.Despite the rhetoric the administration is very friendly to big business and will absolutely help them hire cheaply.

idiotsecant: I would absolutely not expect this, especially as long as Oracle and all the other technofeudalists are properly paying their taxes to the count and king.

toomuchtodo: Good.

timedude: Turns out it was true all the layoffs were because of AI (actual indians).

moshegramovsky: I don't understand why American workers would support this program at this scale. Furthermore, I believe universities and other similar researchy/affiliated non-profits are exempt from the hiring caps.I just cannot imagine executives at tech companies/body shops having any positive ethical motivations. More like "they'll do what we say without complaining or they'll go home". There's no way it's not just a hugely abusive to both pools of workers. The whole thing really feels like another example of the imbalance between labor and capital in the US.Who originally wanted H-1B/etc? Rich people with money and power? Of course!

reducesuffering: If you want to hire an H1B and claim there is no American to do that job, what about the 30k employees you just laid off? None of them can do the software engineering, sales, HR, etc. that a company like Oracle works on 99% of the time? It's quite schizophrenic for basic engineering companies like Oracle, Cisco, eBay, Paypal, etc. to claim there are no Americans to do the software engineering they require after they lay off thousands and there are millions of American software engineers looking for work.

dominotw: workers dont. but dont speak against it either because they are scared of losing heir jobs from accusations of racism.

sva_: They have many departments, and are probably reducing some of them while increasing the workforce in others. The idea that they hire 'those damn foreigners' to push down wages is probably true to some degree, but not the whole story. I also don't believe the majority of these H1B are directly hired in other countries for which there is now a $100k fee, but rather people who studied in the US under F1 visa who are exempt from this rule.

calculatte: What magical skills do the "damn foreigners" have that none of those 30,000 laid off employees don't have? What was the intent of the H1B? To find skills that don't exist in this country. What is H1B actually used for? Labor arbitrage, nepotism, kickbacks. There's really no excuse for defending it anymore.

moshegramovsky: H-1B exists to make unfathomably rich corporations and people even more unfathomably rich. That's the only reason. That's why we don't have single payer. How can corporations function if employees don't equate job loss with total economic and social ruin?

moshegramovsky: By taxes, do you mean buying Trump's crypto?

alephnerd: Meanwhile this March we saw 15k manufacturing jobs, 26k construction jobs, and 91k healthcare and education jobs added [0].Those are the voters that matter (unionized, geographically spread out, didn't price everyone else out via remote work) - not SWEs.[0] - https://www.ft.com/content/82c1795b-704a-4da3-82ec-2f9cd52de...

qwertyuiop_: USCIS says they competed the 2027 quota. Is there any evidence all enrolled paid $100k this year ?

trollbridge: I would assume many were change-of-status from F-1 / OPT etc.

pj_mukh: Just to cut through the headline here. The largest chunk of Oracle layoffs were in India [1]. In comparison, they've barely fired any American workers.Contrary to popular opinion, IT workers aren't interchangeable and there exist a large swath of jobs that very few people qualify for (HN should know this) because of the specialization required.America is at near full employment [2]. Replacing American workers with lower paid foreign workers is already illegal and frequently enforced[3].This is such a deep distraction but a virulent virus of a narrative, surgically designed to needle our reptilian minds.[1]: https://www.goodreturns.in/news/tech-layoffs-2025-oracle-cut...[2]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/269959/employment-in-the...[3]: https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20180501-2, https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20180501-2

bsjdjdkdkdkdk: GOOD MORNING SIR

zombot: The MAGA crowd will be ecstatic. They get fired while their president's buddy gets to hire new workers that are cheaper and more susceptible to extortion. Be careful what you vote for.

motbus3: Well... If they fact check stuff... The layoffs didn't happen in Americahttps://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pj_mukh

Dig1t: Sadly I think you're wrong on this one. Trump's donors benefit from H1B cheap labor. Musk, Elison, etc contributed large sums to Trump's campaign. Just look at Musk's "fuck your own face" tweets from Dec 2024 and you'll see how the people with power feel about this issue. As usual the middle class is being squeezed by the oligarchy.The 100k fee basically does nothing to curb H1B cheap labor. It's a one-time fee, and when you realize that H1B's can't easily leave their job, it's a fee that easily pays for itself. H1B's are paid less for the same job (just google "are H1B's paid less"), and since they can't easily leave, the reduced turnover saves them money as well. If you think that an employee is likely to stay for 4 years, that's only 25k per year and the fact that they are paid about 15%-20% less than an American, the equation still easily comes out in favor of importing the cheap labor.It was a move crafted to look like it was cracking down on abuse, but not actually cause any real pain to the companies abusing the system. Hence why all these mega corps are still filing for H1B's even while laying off their American citizen workers.

throwatdem12311: Everyone that supports the H1-B program because they “can’t find talent” is my enemy.

motbus3: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pj_mukhYou didn't even try to read the comments to get a context. You assumed you were being attacked and you need to hate immigrants. You are just being manipulated.

moshegramovsky: I work in Bellevue, WA, and there are a lot of Indians. How many are on H-1B? I I don't know. Anyway, I am a life long Democrat, but the Democratic Party needs to do something huge for American workers (like single payer healthcare) or we'll have Trump III or its equivalent or worse than that.

dominotw: construction, hospital nurses and daycare workers are the avialble jobs? so depressing and scary

guzfip: Yeah you don’t want to work 60+ hours a week to be even remotely close to what you were making before?

QGQBGdeZREunxLe: It's always puzzled me that layoffs don't result in a temporary bar from using the H1B system like it does for filing PERMs with the DoL.

QGQBGdeZREunxLe: The giant gaping loophole they left in place. Renewals and COS (change of status) does not incur the $100k fee.

mikert89: Where did my standard of living go? Couldnt possibly have to do with imported labor working around the clock under the threat of being kicked out of the country

maest: Cheap labour producing goods for the native population at low costs should increase your standard of living, no? It makes the products you buy cheaper.By your logic, if you were the only person in the country, you'd live like a king.

toasty228: That's way too naive, prices never go down, the owner pockets the difference, you pay the same, and once they come to your industry you have more competition

dexwiz: Because our government is not run for the workers but the owners. Full stop.

iugtmkbdfil834: There are days I think what we need is a slightly bigger font for heavily upvoted comments.

Dig1t: There was no option to vote for which was actually pro-worker. The other side is just as in-favor of these "high skilled" visas, and also even more pro mass-migration of all kinds. The previous admin sued Texas and Arizona to take down their border walls, and sent forklifts to literally open the barbed wire at the border.There is no evidence that the alternative party would have done anything about this issue.It is obvious that both parties are completely detached from the interests of their constituents.

alephnerd: > Yeah you don’t want to work 60+ hours a weekThese are union jobs where hours worked don't extend beyond 50 hours including overtime and with significantly lower barrier to entry compared to software.Why should American SWEs earn more than Accountants (around $80k), Teachers (around $70k), or Mechanical Engineers (around $80k)?It's this kind of attitude that makes non-techies feel schadenfreude.Techies moan and moan, yet in reality we became the capital elite - a median TC of $190K [0] does make you the capital elite in a country where the median household income is $80k [1].[0] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer?countryId=254[1] - https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2025/demo/p60-28...

OrvalWintermute: Not sure this is truly the “Oracle VP of Workforce Economics” posting on X, but it makes a good thread:https://x.com/gothburz/status/2040142920674656482?s=46

iugtmkbdfil834: << HN should know thisHN does know. Some of us question whether brave and courageous leadership knows.

saulpw: From your first link, it says 10% of 28k employees in India were cut. I personally know several people who were laid off from Oracle this week (OCI). One person who's still there described it as a "bloodbath across our division" and says he counted 15k. I don't know what exactly he was counting but as we're in North America I am assuming they're all here. Whereas India layoffs were fewer than 3k. So that directly disputes your statement that "they've barely fired any American workers".

Noumenon72: Your [3] shows that the government enforces paying H1-Bs competitive salaries, not that it cares about the Americans they replaced.

pj_mukh: Yes that is what “don’t pay foreigners less to replace costlier American workers” looks like. It’s what makes H1B workers cost the same.

moshegramovsky: You're definitely not wrong but I still voted for Kamala because I didn't want Trump to burn the country down.

sapphicsnail: Companies are importing labor so they can avoid pay competitive wages to native workers. If you need to hire people from other countries they should have the same pay and protections as everyone else.

moshegramovsky: That's MAGA for you. They're not even complaining (very much) about super high gas prices. They absolutely excoriated Biden when the price went up even a nickel. MAGA will sacrifice absolutely anything for their king.

satvikpendem: For tech jobs specifically? Compensation has been increasing since the turn of the millennium, what standard of living do you mean? If you mean housing, that's due mainly to NIMBYism from native labor buying and owning houses, especially before the tech boom, not imported labor.

mikert89: cute that you guys are still arguing this

pj_mukh: Yes 15k is the global number including massive international call centers all becoming obsolete.This is what a generational specialization swap out looks like.Oracle is hiring as many people in America as H1B filings this year [1] (though most H1B filings with fail) this is literally the pie growing from all sides but just becoming a blueberry AI pie from an apple pie[1] https:&#x2F;&#x2F;careers.oracle.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;sites&#x2F;jobsearch&#x2F;jobs?location=...

ergocoder: Stanford also filed an H1B this year to hire an IT person.https:&#x2F;&#x2F;x.com&#x2F;chrisbrunet&#x2F;status&#x2F;2037376353461567734Apparently, no citizen wants to do this job? Why do we allow things like this?

starik36: > America is at near full employmentThen why does it take months and months for even experienced devs to land a job?

reenorap: The title is extremely deceitful. They filed H1Bs for 2025 and 2026, but not after or during the layoffs from last week.That’s like saying “Oracle hires tens of thousands and mass layoffs” (* hired during the pandemic)

motbus3: Read this guy comment before taking it to this levelhttps:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;threads?id=pj_mukh

nobodyandproud: He’s a shill.

anonym29: Because H1b is an arrangement that more or less amounts to indentured servitude where vulnerable people have their visa status glued to their at-will employment agreement, resulting in a dynamic where employers can and frequently do expect unpaid overtime, fewer sick days, and otherwise disproportionately greater value from h1b employees, and those who fail to meet these unfair expectations are let go and effectively evicted from the country as it is extraordinarily rare to to secure another h1b job within 60 days.The number on two paystubs can be the exact same while one person is being brutally overworked and the other given a leisurely, comfortable WLB, which effectively amounts to underpaying the foreign labor, per unit of output, devaluing each unit of labor of domestic output.

sapphicsnail: Just because someone has it worse doesn't mean you should accept bad things happening.

mulmen: [delayed]

toomuchtodo: > America is at near full employment [2]. Replacing American workers with lower paid foreign workers is already illegal and frequently enforced[3].Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens - https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=45223719 - September 2025 (526 comments)Job Listing Site Highlighting H-1B Positions So Americans Can Apply - https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=44892321 - August 2025 (108 comments)H-1B Middlemen Bring Cheap Labor to Citi, Capital One - https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=44398978 - June 2025 (4 comments)Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers - https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42385000 - December 2024 (65 comments)How middlemen are gaming the H-1B program - https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=41123945 - July 2024 (57 comments)https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=42454509 (additional citations)

pj_mukh: All these articles talk about how the justice department has a fantastic hit rate in suing these companies to kingdom come. Good. The law is working as intended. That is my point.

OptionOfT: And every employer that says they can't find talent fits in the same bucket for me.There is no issue finding talent. There is only an issue finding talent that is willing to work for the too-low pay you're willing to pay.

nobodyandproud: Easier to fire? Still costs less? Do what they’re told, because they’re chained to the company and job?

PearlRiver: The US only has two political parties and they are both, secretly, pro immigration.The EU is actually clamping down on it because of populist&#x2F;far right parties. I know someone who runs a Thai restaurant and he cannot fly in a cook from Asia. He has to find someone from Europe.

peyton: To be fair the US is pro-immigration and that’s no secret. H1-B is a guest worker visa. Those jobs could equally go to immigrants.

trhway: Several years ago i was talking to an acquaintance (many years ago we worked together back then in Russia) who was a director at Oracle at the time, and he was telling how having a bunch of open positions he specifically tried to hire from the recently laid off pool, and mostly he wasn't able to - they were failing even basic technical interview. Coincidentally, i knew one of those laid off guys - he sat at his position for more than a decade, becoming completely "covered with moss" (i know that situation very well - doing the 15th year at my current place, i'm sure i'd fail any basic tech interview today too)

lateforwork: Keep in mind that employers have to pay $100,000 in visa fees (in addition to competitive salaries) for each H-1B visa. Clearly these immigrants are not undercutting US workers. It is $100K cheaper to hire a US worker.

toomuchtodo: I suppose we simply disagree, and that is fine. I think the H-1B should be eliminated in favor of the O-1, the domestic labor exists, corporations would simply "optimize their labor costs" and employ workers with reduced mobility via the H-1B.As I've commented previously: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=46257889 "I am calling for a temporary moratorium for issuing new worker visas based on the current economic macro and existing immigrant worker base in the US companies can pick from, yes. I support the current $100k H-1B fee, in perpetuity. The domestic workforce exists, it is a choice to not pick from the domestic labor pool. Choices have consequences."The US has an obligation to its citizens, not corporations, not immigrant labor (already on US soil, or desiring to be on US soil). Shareholder returns go to the top 10% of Americans (who own 90% of US equities), so any argument about prosperity impairment from impaired immigration is going to fall on deaf ears in this context.

andriy_koval: "we" don't allow, but also don't enforce (violators are rarely punished).

ergocoder: I feel like this is legal i.e. we allow it.Stanford wouldn't blatantly violate laws like this.

throwatdem12311: > you need to hate immigrantsOracle is immigrants?

luckydata: If America is at near full employment why don't I have a job after looking for 6 months. This is a load of nonsense.

infamouscow: Owners are a minority of voters, which raises an obvious question: why does the majority tolerate it?Every serious attempt to answer that ends up admitting something uncomfortable, that democracy only functions as intended if voters are consistently rational and informed. But that assumption doesn’t hold. It never has. Even the Athenians put Socrates, father of Western civilization, to death.If society were at all rational, we'd see a lot more people swing from lampposts.

ipaddr: Wealth can be spent on influence. That includes news converage &#x2F; ads &#x2F; or donations.

jinglebell2025: America has an H1b invasion problem

raw_anon_1111: Just for reference, if you’re in tech and a senior even in a 2nd tier city, you’re probably not “the little guy”, you’re probably in the top 10% if you make more than around $160Khttps:&#x2F;&#x2F;dqydj.com&#x2F;income-percentile-calculator&#x2F;

toomuchtodo: I have personally been in the room when illegal labor decisions were made around H-1B hiring and immigration law, which I reported to USCIS. But that doesn't scale unless you can get into more places where these decisions are made. So, when all you have is a hammer, you have to hit whatever is within reach of the target outcome.> you’re probably not “the little guy”, you’re probably in the top 10% if you make more than around $160KI am closer to a blue collar worker than a CEO or other very wealthy&#x2F;empowered person driving these anti labor decisions, so your argument is not compelling, I know who these people are behind closed doors.

darth_avocado: Also to cut through the headlines once again. What the article actually says:> Federal data shows Oracle filed for 2,690 H-1B visas in fiscal year 2025 and 436 so far in fiscal year 2026, totaling over 3,100 visa requests.There is no proof that these people were also not part of the layoffs. Typically in layoffs, until the day off the announcement, it’s just business as usual. Which means people keep getting hired and H1B petitions being filed. The article doesn’t say they filed these petitions AFTER the layoffs.