Discussion
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kalleboo: I hope they keep around the underpinnings for Rosetta 2 (without the macOS parts) just to keep supporting Intel virtualization for things like Docker. Heck then anyone who really needs to run some old Intel app can run a virtualized older version of macOS.But I wonder if they're eager to drop support for the Intel TSO memory model from their CPUs.
stetrain: I read somewhere that the part that allows a virtual machine to use Rosetta inside the VM is sticking around.MacOS on ARM can't directly virtualize an Intel OS using Rosetta today using the native virtualization framework, you need something like qemu for that. But you can use an ARM linux VM with the Rosetta framework installed internally to run x86 containers, which is I think how docker desktop and similar alternatives are handling it.
zitterbewegung: Apple will keep Rosetta 2 support for Intel virtualization. See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple-silicon/abou...
kirb: The official statement from Apple (emailed to developers 10 days ago) is that macOS 27 is the “final release to support Rosetta”, so the title is a bit off.They also say:> Please note that Rosetta functionality for older, unmaintained gaming titles that rely on Intel-based frameworks will continue to be supported.I interpret that to mean just enough of Rosetta and Intel frameworks will continue to be around, at least for macOS 28. Not specified which ones, or whether it stays any longer than that.I’m pretty curious of what that will look like exactly, because there’s a fair amount of system frameworks/libraries needed to get to a bare minimum “hello world” AppKit app. Add on top any number of other frameworks that might be used by “older, unmaintained” games that Apple sees fit to keep supporting. Does this ensure OpenGL is kept on life support? Will they consider Wine important enough to support, perhaps even after they drop native Intel games?
skywhopper: Bad headline. This tweet attempts to explain why Rosetta 2 will no longer work. Which is because the OS no longer supports the Intel platform. That does not explain why the OS does not support the Intel platform.
icedchai: Because it costs them money to maintain it, and they'll make more money when people upgrade to M series?In all seriousness, it's a little lame. Consider that the Intel Mac Pro (2019 model) was still selling in 2023! That's not that long ago, and those were their highest end machines in terms of memory capacity. The "new" Mac Pro has since been discontinued...
alin23: Wait, so.. how are we supposed to test Intel builds of our macOS apps from now on?I get it that macOS has to evolve, but that doesn't mean all apps have to drop Intel support at the same time.On hardware-level apps like my Lunar app I have plenty #if arch(arm64) because some features like reading the brightness nits or reading ambient light is different or completely missing based on the architecture. I need to test the UI differences based on what features are available.I don't see it viable to stay on macOS 26 for this, especially if we're going to see breaking changes again with the display and window server subsystem like we did with Tahoe. M5 support for Gamma table changes is still broken after so many months [0][0] https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/819331#819331021
htk: Keep an Intel Mac around?
tyingq: I'm curious what options that leaves for docker. I assume the pattern of building/running linux/amd64 containers on MacOS is pretty widespread.
ryukoposting: > Wait, so.. how are we supposed to test Intel builds of our macOS apps from now on?You don't. You could stay on an old MacOS. Apple would prefer that you tell your customers to stop being poor and buy a new computer. They will make your situation increasingly unbearable until you do.The overwhelming majority of people haven't needed a new computer since 2016. The current economic situation makes a new computer a worse value proposition than it's been in 35 years. Vendors are responding to this situation by manufacturing obsolescence. Microsoft pulled the same stunt with Windows 11's TPM 2.0 requirement.
rimliu: Same way you test them now?
rootsudo: Wow and darn I guess last support update to fully depreciate intel MacBooks. Used prices already are cratered.They are great heavily supported Linux machines though. They work out of the box gorgeously with numerous distros and being usbc is nice. For $100-200 for a mint condition model, it isn’t so bad.
Ygg2: Because Apple is the King of Deprecations. And they get away with it.
stetrain: > Because Apple is the King of Deprecations.Google might wear that particular crown: https://killedbygoogle.com
pram: Apple seems to slightly care about supporting Codeweavers/CrossOver from things I've seen, which indirectly makes Wine, Rosetta 2, and GPTK "important enough to support" since they're important features
bombcar: I read that as "Rosetta2 for 32 bit" will still be around, somehow.
bombcar: Arguably if you're shipping new fat binary code today, you should already have an Intel Mac around to test, because there might be subtle differences between Intel-on-Rosetta2 and Intel-on-Intel.
al_borland: Maybe Microsoft will finally update the Minecraft launcher to support Apple Silicon. Last I looked they tried to close the bug report, someone reopened it, then there was a system migration and I lost track of it.It’s almost like they did the work to get the actual game running on Apple Silicon, but installed Rosetta in the process, then just forgot about the launcher.I always refused to install Rosetta on my Mac, so I could get a big warning if I was about to install something that wouldn’t work in the not too distant future.
nntwozz: Focusing is about saying no.— Steve Jobshttps://youtu.be/H8eP99neOVs (WWDC '97)This is something Microsoft will never learn, it's not in their DNA.
icelusxl: Virtualize macOS 26 for testing purposes: https://eclecticlight.co/2025/01/21/what-can-you-do-with-vir...
troad: I think it's a stretch to call Apple's ARM transition "planned obsolescence". The M-series chips are very clear improvements on what came before and there is a clear rationale for that transition.We're talking here about an OS that hasn't even come out yet, that will get years of security support, for computers that Apple hasn't been selling for several years now. Seems pretty reasonable.
tsunamifury: I have a MacBook from 2017 and and m3 air today.For day to day tasks there is no difference.
akreal: AFAIK all ways of running docker on MacOS rely on a amd64 virtual machine with Linux kernel in it.
p0w3n3d: I wonder if Apple cares about docker/podman which uses rosetta on amd64 images
apetrovic: That's overly dramatic. I don't think a new Macbook Air today is a worse value proposition than some Mac from 35 years ago. I just checked Apple prices from 1991: - Mac Classic II, the slowest of the bunch, $1.900, or about $4.661 today - Quadra 900, the fastest model in 1991, was $7.200 ($17.663 today) - PowerBook 170 was $4600 ($11.285)
scioto: I still prefer my pre-2016 Intel Mac since I can do more things that I want to do on it than my newer M4.
mghackerlady: IIRC Apple supported 10.5 extra long because of it being the last PowerPC MacOS. I wouldn't be surprised if they do something similar here. Keep an intel mac around, and you should be fine
ryukoposting: "Value" and "price" aren't the same thing. A new computer in 1991 cost more, but it also covered a vastly increased set of use cases versus a machine from 5 years prior. Today, you can buy a used MBP with an M1 and it will do everything a new MBP can do, and the differences compared to a new machine will be imperceptible to most users.Plenty of people would even be perfectly happy on an x86 Mac, too. Sure, there would be a perceptible difference compared to a new machine, but not enough to justify the price. That's what obsoleting Rosetta is about, it's about artifically making x86 Macs so unbearable that would-be happy users have no choice but to buy something else.
atroon: Apple is the King of Hardware Deprecations. Google is the King of Software Deprecations. You're both right.
Ygg2: They are the Kings of Apple Ecosystem Deprecations - not just hardware. I'm comparing them to the x86 and the Windows ecosystem.Google is the God-King of Killing software.
tyingq: docker --platform linux/arm64 depends on amd64 ?
kalleboo: Oh yeah, I had forgotten about the weird "games" exception. At least that means they'll keep parts of Rosetta 2 around in the code, but they could also end up doing some weird whitelisting for the specific games they want to support and not let anyone else keep using it.
