Discussion

You Are Not Your Job

MattDamonSpace: Fine essay overall but “We possess the means to care for everyone -- yet choose not to”I really don’t think this is true

beastman82: I want to thank everyone who hates work, is mentally checked out of their jobs and quiet quitting etc.It makes it much easier for me to distinguish myself as a hard worker who cares about the business being successful. It also helps me keep my job during layoffs because I can assure you the managers have noticed.When you are old and have lots of formative experiences that are not work-based, we can shake hands and mutually appreciate each other's motives and respective outcomes.

garciasn: I am arguably a successful employee in a tech-focused role. I enjoy my job and others seem to feel I'm good at what I do.That said: I am NOT at all interested in identifying myself in social situations by my job. When someone asks what I do, I respond that I work in tech. I am not interested in giving more details nor talking in-depth about what I do to others I have just met.Why? Because that's not at all what makes me...me. I am far more interested in what I do outside of work (reading...a lot, listening to music, spending as much time w/my family as possible, traveling, spending time at my lake home, etc). That is what I work to do; enjoy my life.I realize this is an uncommon opinion, but I find it SO VERY ODD that folks are OBSESSED about their jobs and make it a central point of their existence to those outside of their specific industry. I do NOT care what someone does for their day-to-day; it's unlikely it will have any impact on me or my friendship with them. I want to know what they bring to the table in our current or potential social situation and the fact that they make PowerPoint presentations for whomever to look at, ask a few questions answered in the presentation's appendix, and never think about again doesn't do anything to further any of that.

tim-tday: 50% of your waking hours are spent at work. The person you are revolves around your working hours, the problems you solve the concerns you have, the money you make the persona you display at work.Saying you are not your work is wishful thinking. Try giving it up and check in on how much of you is still the same.Maybe you wish to be more than your working self. That’s honorable and desirable. Just declaring it isn’t going to cut it though.

heikkilevanto: > Saying you are not your work is wishful thinking. Try giving it up and check in on how much of you is still the same.I retired a few years ago, and I believe and insist that I am very much the same person.To see a person only as what they do at work seems awfully limiting. Even when I was working, I was also a sailor, musician, woodworker, home brewer, cat person, chess player, leather guy, and a good number of other things. And yes, even after retiring, I am still a computer guy. I even like hobby coding projects more than I did.

ChrisMarshallNY: There’s an old aphorism: “Do what you love, and you’ll never work a day in your life.”I worked in tech, because I love tech. No other reason, really. I accepted a job, making maybe half of what I could make, elsewhere, because of the personal satisfaction I got from it, and the relationships I made, there.When I retired, I have continued to develop software, and am currently “leaning into” AI-assisted development.During that time, I’ve also had plenty of time to be human.

vrganj: I have found that aphorism does not ring true for me.“Do what you love for work, and you'll stop loving it" seems more true to me. It always eventually turns into a chore once it is a thing you need to do.

asveikau: > worker who cares about the business being successfulIn most cases, this is a sucker mentality that makes you vulnerable to abusive employers. You will stress yourself out making your boss richer. They won't care or make reciprocal gestures. They'd be happy to replace you should you become inconvenient.

Arainach: > It also helps me keep my job during layoffs because I can assure you the managers have noticed.If you believe the managers who interact with you have any say in who gets laid off, then your understanding of how business works isn't nearly as good as you seem to believe it is.

Etheryte: The US could make homelessness a thing of the past with a minuscule fraction of what it is spending on the military. It is very much a choice.

dolebirchwood: I've known people who survived multiple rounds of layoffs, not because they were "distinguished", but because they were the cheapest. Meanwhile, their more talented counterparts got the ax for being too expensive. Simple as that.

jazz9k: Do you have any friends? Your job is a good topic that allows you to find something in common with another person.

fcarraldo: Not if they work outside of tech…

marconey: Well said, thanksI’d much rather know and learn about someone’s passion for woodworking, hill walking, flower arranging, whatever they enjoy doing in their free time, rather than having to talk about their (or my!) work.

loglog: Traveling? Lake home? I am glad to go to work just to not listen to my wife how we are so poor and cannot have nice things.

sodapopcan: Hate to say it but very appropriate username.

testing22321: > It also helps me keep my job during layoffs because I can assure you the managers have noticed.Sounds like you’re young and early in your career.Wait till you’re part of a layoff where an entire division or arm of the company is axed in a 750 person headcount reduction.Doesn’t matter how good you are, how many years of service you have or even if the CEO loves you. You’ll be out.

Tade0: This approach makes huge sense when you're a contractor who is aiming to graduate into a staff engineer.

rexpop: This idea that you are not your job is ridiculous because of the amount of time that you spend at your work. And it’s not just fifty of your waking hours, right? There’s also time spent preparing for, commuting to, and winding down from that work. And also, you know, how much of your work are you doing in the shower? It stains the rest of your life; it soaks into everything.This concept goes hand in hand with...(oh, to say nothing of the many years of your life dedicated to developing this vocation through school and training or whatever. So it’s not just hours of the day; it’s years of your life that revolve around developing this vocation. It’s deeply disingenuous to suggest that it’s possible to separate yourself meaningfully from your vocation. Frankly, it’s insulting—to suggest that such separation is possible or even preferable, or to judge people for failing to separate their vocation from their identity when it’s impossible.It makes me think of some of the impossible requirements placed on women: that they not be too slutty while at the same time not wearing a hijab or being too conservative. They get pressure from both sides, and there’s very little space, if any, that goes unjudged or unremarked upon. Having children too early, too late, or not at all—women will get flack from one corner of society or another. Likewise, workers get flack for overidentifying with their vocation, but it’s really impossible to extricate ourselves from it. For that reason, I find the whole idea offensive.)...this concept of not making friends at work—or of distinguishing between your “work friends” and your “real friends.”People tell me, “Your manager is not your friend. Your co-workers are not here to be your friends. You shouldn’t expect loyalty from them.” And okay, I get that. I understand the economic realities; I’ve had co-workers say things like, “Hey, I agree with you on this one, but I have a mortgage. I have kids in college. So I’m not going to speak up. I’m not going to join you in this complaint or in this effort to improve working conditions.”I understand there are real economic constraints on the friendships, the loyalty, and the relationships that we establish in the office. I’ve also had co-workers who were loyal, empathetic, caring, honest, earnest—decent, good people—and they were groomed for management in a way that basically meant that once a week they’d be taken into a room and grilled about everyone else’s behavior. They were made into unwilling spies, and that has a chilling effect on the depth of friendships you can create. What’s tragic about that is, as I said at the start, because so much of our lives are dedicated to our vocation, the fact that we cannot establish meaningful, trusting, loyal relationships—that we’re forced to snitch on and betray one another—is a stunning, fundamental, disgusting injustice.It’s an enormous violation of human liberties and possibilities. It is an utterly debased compromise that we’ve made as a society, one that wrecks us. It is a deeply troubling flaw in our foundation—that the majority of our hours, days, and years are dedicated to an environment where mutual trust and free association are fundamentally compromised.

alpha_squared: Something tells me you haven't been laid off before. I think the overconfidence you're displaying here will be shattered if that were to happen. I hope it doesn't happen to you, but if it does I hope you remember that you are not your job.

chrisweekly: Yeah! IMHO "What are you into / what do you care about or do for fun?" should replace "What do you do? [ie, what's your profession / where do you work]" as the default ice-breaker. More interesting, less reductive or competitive.

lm28469: > 60% of your waking hours are spent at work.More like 15% of you work from home for a small company and shut the fuck up about wanting to be a career man. If you're not a homo consumator and play your cards right that's enough to check out of the corporate life before 45

tomekw: I used to BE a software engineer. Then, I experienced a 3 years long burnout and got professional help. Now I work AS an Engineering Manager.You are not your job. Do not put your ego in what you do. That’s something I discuss a lot during my 1:1s.

KellyCriterion: So you are saying that your job does not have any impact on your personality, despite you are there for 8+h a day? The environment you are in for hours (even if its great, you are forced) does not shapre who you are?And regarding social interactions: Its no difference for you interacting with people from your mind-liked crowd in opposion to someone who runs a gun-shop-chain? For sure, a constructed example, but Id say there is for sure some difference when acting with the different groups?

oncallthrow: > It also helps me keep my job during layoffs because I can assure you the managers have noticed.I got to this bit before realising this is satire

weatherlite: Some people indeed identify too much with their jobs, but for many others getting replaced by A.I means on very practical terms - a huge hit in salary, it means possibly retraining - maybe for years, means stress to the family (mortgage, bills etc) perhaps even stress to the marriage. I disagree that the people near you only love you or need you for your presence; they also rely on your paycheck. Your daugher may love you for you but she needs that check to the private school, that money for nice clothes and gadgets like her friends all have and paying for that apartment in the nice neighborhood.

galleywest200: I prefer to ask people what they do for fun when looking for something in common, as opposed to what they do for work.Some people are recently laid off, and asking what they do for work might sting a bit.

IncreasePosts: I'd only become more "me" if I stopped working. Work isn't a place I go to self actualize, it's a place I go to earn money to do the things I want to do.

mhurron: It's also a place a great number of people have to hide who they are because they have to fit in.

Tade0: This.I refrain from making jokes or even smalltalk in my new role because I noticed people don't do that here and keep meetings to the point.

oytis: People don't need self-help advise, they need a fair redistribution of increased productivity.We don't make a big deal of our jobs because we are stupid - it's the society that assigns this or that income to this or that job, and income determines lifestyle or in worst case the survival.

drzaiusx11: I enjoy writing and designing software systems, and have since my first apple ii use in 2nd grade writing logo programs (the turtle drawing programming language)I write software in my spare time, for fun, as it scratches a particular itch in my brain, but I also enjoy a lot of other hobbies as well: woodworking, car repair, boating, beekeeping...Having a 9 to 5 desk job in any field is it's own type of soul crushing, even moreso as of late for myself personally. However, if I need to perform the song and dance to support my family, I'll at least do it to the tune of something I enjoy. With software engineering I can at least "get lost in" the work, so the drudgery can be temporarily forgotten until I can get home to my family and side projects.

weatherlite: "Do what you love, and you’ll never work a day in your life."It's possible sex workers took this advice too literally...

manmal: It sounds like you have a privileged life, and a hard time getting into the shoes of people who don’t.

garciasn: I absolutely do lead a privileged life; I would say that MOST of those in the HN community do too. But, I am baffled as to how me not choosing to focus on what I do at work makes me somehow unable to put myself in others shoes; if anything, it allows us MORE COMMON GROUND.I feel as if talking about work is some sort of social signaling / dick measuring contest. "I work in tech," or, "I'm a doctor," shows that you're well off. Talking about what books I enjoy, what music I'm listening to, what I'm making for dinner, or what I'm doing w/my kids is anything but; if anything, those topics are benign, relatable, and interesting.

ThrowawayR2: [delayed]

cedws: >My technical skills are being disrupted by machines - that's fine I'll go do other things. [links to long bike trip]Ok that's cool and all but many of us have bills to pay. Bike trips don't pay the bills. Software people have been economically advantaged up until now that they can go and do stuff like that.

rc-1140: Even software people have bills to pay and mouths to feed. I think people like the article author are either single or have no dependents, and it's a big reason I cannot take many of these posts seriously. Much like the story of Peter Pan, the authors of these posts are college students who never grew up and had to be responsible.

andai: We're currently in the process of designing and building machines that can do everything better, faster and cheaper than humans.Gradually, we are succeeding.This leaves us with two options:a) Decouple the value of human life from economic outputb) Watch as the value of human life rapidly approaches zero

block_dagger: Within a few years I think UBI or UBS will be required for people to continue living, in which case basic needs (bills) won't be a concern. There's just no way for us to transition fast enough to avoid high unemployment as AI replaces large swaths of jobs. I do worry about the ~10 year transition it will take for societal governments to react.

cedws: I think UBI is a pipe dream. I live in the UK and even with our social safety net which is much stronger than the US's, I can't imagine the government ever handing out money adequate to live a middle class life to large chunk of the population.UBI has problems that far as I know haven't been addressed. Vast numbers of people no longer being occupied doesn't seem like it would lead to a healthy society. And how do you uphold democracy when the government is effectively handing out the paychecks?

CAPSLOCKSSTUCK: Nobody needs private school, give me a fucking break.

QuantumFunnel: That's a very privileged thing to say about a career where the tools to replace developers did not exist