Discussion
Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank, report says
moinism: how come an anti-Israeli post has not been flagged and removed from the front page yet? mods haven't had their coffee?
woggy: If only hell was real.
Iridescent_: Well it sure must seem real for Palestinians. And it's just called life on Earth.
Noumenon72: You can do strip searches/cavity searches without it being sexual assault, such as with detainees in prison. Not clear whether soldiers are acting on their own or following policy.
firefoxd: The language in the article would be fascinating if it wasn't such a horrible thing.It's not that the Israeli soldiers are sexually assaulting Palestinians, instead they are using Sexual Assault.Later they say "Sexualised violence is used...", "men and boys were Targeted..."It's like there is a gun shooting people, or someone using a gun. But we can't connect fully understand how or who is perpetuating it.Edit: some more:"Israeli soldiers present during abuse had repeatedly failed to prevent it..." Who was abusing?
ojbyrne: [delayed]
throw_a_grenade: > Who was abusing?It's possible that in some cases it was settlers. So technically not soldiers. But soldiers protected them, incl. from any resisting abuse.
woggy: Look up the article in Ha'aretz recently "IDF Soldiers Talk About the 'Moral Injury' – and the Silence" for another example of this. I mean, I am glad they are talking about it, but the way it is framed is maddening.
thot_experiment: US support for Israel is one of the most horrible things imaginable, really makes me ashamed. It is only the US standing between the current horrendous status quo and Israel being an true international pariah state. Hopefully we cut off support and usher in a find out era.
thot_experiment: (Though to be honest my position is probably that we need to go past cutting off support and US tax dollars should go toward reparations for Palesine, Lebanon and probably Iran and others, we are complicit in a lot of fucked shit.)
Allfodr: "Opinions" like yours just show that the US is in a process of self destruction
culi: The settlers. They are there illegally and do illegal things but the soldiers are there to provide them with functional immunity
fwipsy: I don't think the passive voice is meant to protect the perpetrators. Instead, they are presenting sexual assault as a deliberate tactic or policy, or at least a common pattern. If true, this is a much bigger story than isolated incidents of violence. But sixteen reported cases over three years seems very low. Likely there are more cases they missed. Mainly it seems like they have very little data.
appreciatorBus: If the soldiers hadn’t been there, what would the Palestinians and their supporters have done to the settlers?
appreciatorBus: The source material in the Guardian article is a report from the Norwegian refugee councilhttps://ngo-monitor.org/reports/norwegian-refugee-council-ac...> Since Hamas’ October 7 brutal pogrom in southern Israel, NRC has issued numerous statements, almost entirely focused on condemning Israel for its response in Gaza – aside from token mentions of Israeli victims.> On October 7, as the massacre was unfolding, NRC posted a statement from its Palestine Country director Ana Povrzenic that did not mention – let alone condemn – the attacks, and euphemistically referred to “unprecedented hostilities.” The short statement ended by blaming the victims: “The only path towards stability and peace is for the international community to finally address the root causes of the conflict including ending the occupation of Palestinian territory.”Just like the Guardian, these people are not neutral stewards of moral clarity or truth. They’ve got a position, they’ve made up their mind. The articles and papers exist solely to artefacts of persuasion.
gostsamo: The christian supporters of Israel can also think a bit about the itf soldiers destroying a statue of Jesus in Lebanon if they want to understand what they are supporting. Useful idiots doesn't even start to describe it.https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpd575n1znzo
tristanb: Why?
throw_a_grenade: „There” — you mean where? Generally in the West Bank or intruding into Palestinian homes to abuse their children?I'd wager Palestinians would throw them out of their homes. Instead, parents had to stand there helpless.If you meant generally, I think they wouldn't be there without soldiers at all, illegaly tranfering own population into occupied territories.
gib444: You only had to wait a few minutes
totetsu: I live in a country that while deeply perverted, is still not very sexually liberated day to day. And I also have many people in my social group that for reasons of cultural exchange have visited and lived in Israel. For someone who grew up in a country where it was normal to be writing essasy in high-school history class about the Balfour declaration, I'm was always amazed about how unaware they all seemed to be about the issues there. One thing I often hear from them is about more sex they were having or seeing around them In Israel. Or how it was much more directly part of the social life. And how much more things like other peoples play was visible in sex clubs or.. there was more "taboo" things taking place. I wonder what is going on in Israeli society that this kind of liberation exists side by side with these continuous reports of sexual violence in prisons, and now this.. What is the vibe line in a swingers club or on tinder if you're having to side eye someone wondering if they've be involved in that.. I have seen talk about rainbow washing, and homonationalism.. And its not like .. Israel is exactly publicly marketing itself as a bastion of sexual freedom .. but it seems to be part of people private conversations.. what do we call this.. eronationalism?
woggy: Straight from IDF soliders:One incident did leave a scar. It happened at an army outpost in southern Gaza. "I was sitting there in the command room," Maya says. "Suddenly, the soldiers on watch noticed five Palestinians crossing the line they weren't allowed to cross, heading for northern Gaza."Everybody went crazy. There was a big mess. The battalion commander gave an order to overwhelm them with fire, even though they hadn't been confirmed as armed or anything like that. A tank started shooting at them with its machine gun. Hundreds of bullets."She says four of the five Palestinians were killed. "A few hours later, a D9 [Caterpillar armored bulldozer] buried them in the sand. When I asked why, they said that it was so the dogs wouldn't eat them and spread disease. The one who survived was put in a cage at the outpost, and they said we had to wait for a Shin Bet man to interrogate him."The Palestinian sat there, cuffed and blindfolded, and seemed to be freezing from the cold. "Suddenly, one of the soldiers took out his penis and started pissing on him. He told him, 'This is for Be'eri, you asshole, this is for Nova'"– Kibbutz Be'eri and the Nova music festival, two of the sites attacked by Hamas on October 7, 2023. "Nobody could stop laughing. I might have laughed too."
throw_a_grenade: > Not clear whether soldiers are acting on their own or following policy.It mostly doesn't matter, unless they're punished. If they're not, then the policy is, what they did is okay. That's why it's important to keep army disciplined.
siliconpotato: Maybe they were carrying out exodus 20:4...It's ironic that netanyahu says that Christians are thriving in Israel and more than any other middle Eastern country. Only 2% of Israel identifies as Christian, whereas Lebanon has 37%, which Israel is bombing
anal_reactor: To be honest the more I started getting interested in geopolitics the more I understood that the humanitarian ideals we preach simply don't work in real world.Iran is dangerously close to acquiring nuclear weapons. Nobody wants that because Iran is a dictatorship and in case of an already ongoing conflict dictatorships have a bias towards escalation - see how Russia is still fighting in Ukraine even though it's obvious that the whole operation has been a huge mistake. Either we stop Iran or we get a second North Korea - go to South Korea and ask how they feel about a nuke being pointed at Seoul at all times.Before Trump it was kind of taboo that US would just go to Iran and shoot them, hence the necessary existence of Israel that gives zero fucks and will shoot everyone who even thinks of threatening them. The deal was, US gives weapons to Israel, Israel shoots everyone that US doesn't like, Israel takes the moral blame but in exchange maintains its independence.The point is, being morally right means nothing if you die, therefore even good guys need someone to do the dirty job once in a while in order to survive against an opponent that is not playing by the same rules. Imagine a world where police have no guns and politely ask criminals to stop.And from the point of view of Israel - there is literally no good solution for the Palestine situation. If Palestine gets independence it's a matter of time before they declare war on Israel. Whether justified or not, the entire Arab world hates Israel just because they exist exactly where they do, and that's the reality Israelis live in.
Allfodr: Because I don't think US tax money should go toward reparations for Palestine, Lebanon, Iran or anywhere else. We're not 'complicit' in the way you're framing it
appreciatorBus: More likely, they already knew what they wanted to say, data or no data: Israel/US, bad: global revolution, good. They have to keep the pressure up so they need to write papers and get articles written about those papers and then get them posted on hacker news regardless of what actually happened. It’s a constant grind, but I suppose it will all be worth it for them if they get appointed on the committee of the vanguard or something like that.
omnimus: Anything for Second Coming of Jesus
moinism: and now its flagged :D
cassianoleal: > even good guysI assume in your fantasy said "good guys" are the US?https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/09/20-years-us-torture-and-...https://www.numberanalytics.com/blog/ultimate-guide-to-us-wa...https://theconversation.com/operation-condor-the-secret-syst...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes
thot_experiment: I wonder if Iran being a dictatorship has a cause? Why does the Arab world hate Israel I wonder? Everything you're talking about is basically a direct result of UK, US and israeli bullshit in the area. It's people with exactly the same sort of colonial geopolitical ideas as you that CAUSED THE MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
spwa4: Strange how leftists keep blaming specific parties for messes, without critical thought. But no worries. Even within leftist thought, leftist ideals are responsible for the mess in Russia, in China, in North Korea, in Vietnam, in Cuba, ... and plenty of other places.So clearly, there is plenty of messes that leftism/progressivism is responsible for. So I can't help but ask: given that you blame the US for creating the Iranian situation, and hold them responsible. Do you reciprocate? What have you done to fix the messes your ideology, the ones you DO support, has created? Because either people should clean up their messes and leftists are responsible for stopping the Kremlin. OR people should not clear up their messes and what the US/Israel are doing is simply a good thing all around.Even in Iran. It was a leftist revolution that deposed the shah, with some allies of Khomeini, some leftist parties supported by the KGB. And whatever you blame the CIA for, I think we can all agree: Khomeini did far, far worse.Oh and before you say, "Khomeini is not a leftist", let me just say two things. First, he paid lip service. He has an entire book with a loooooooong rant about how every good property of socialism is really part of his "religious republic". Second he massacred socialists as soon as he came to power. And that is a communality in nearly every socialist revolution.So ... when will you sign up for Ukraine's army yet to stop one of the great many messes of leftist thought?Here's the webpage: https://www.ildu.com.ua/how-to-join/
anal_reactor: When in doubt, blame the British.
anal_reactor: Ok now show me a nation that never in its history has committed any atrocities.
