Discussion
LorenDB: Is there any way to actually produce helium other than nuclear fusion? I would assume not, but I'm not an expert in this field.
sixhobbits: It's also formed similarly to oil over millions of years underground if I understand correctly so can be a byproduct of natural gas mining.
throw0101d: Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast had an episode with a helium producer on the topic recently:* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjc6MgUY0BE* https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/now-theres-a-helium-sh...* https://omny.fm/shows/odd-lots/now-theres-a-helium-shortage-...
Invictus0: Fun fact, helium was discovered on the Sun nearly 30 years before it was found on earth.
CamperBob2: Hence the origin of the name!
nsxwolf: Atmospheric extraction on Earth would require massive amounts of energy and infrastructure.Gas giant atmosphere extraction sounds very far future
sixhobbits: I really enjoyed this oddlots podcast episode that covered similar points and had a lot of "wat" moments for me, including the US selling off its strategic helium reserves at a loss because politicians labeled it "party baloon reserve", and how long it takes to produce naturally and how hard it is to find, process and transport.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bjc6MgUY0BE
llm_nerd: Recently had to deal with radon in a basement, leading me to a fun side trek of learning about uranium decay (it has been a lot of years since chemistry classes).When you hear about alpha decay of radioactive materials, that is the matter spitting off a highly ionized helium atom, freshly birthed into this world. That He atom rapidly steals electrons from matter, which is how it can be dangerous to human cells if ingested.All of that helium underground is the result of alpha decay, and a single uranium-238 element will birth 8 helium atoms as it transitions through a series of metals and one gas (radon), then finally finding stability as Pb206. U235 will birth 7, becoming Pb207.Anyways, found that fascinating. It's just happenstance that helium often gets blocked exiting the crust by the same sort of structures that block natural gas from escaping, and they are an odd-couple sharing little in common.One other fun fact -- radon only has a half life of 3.8 days. Uranium becomes thorium becomes radium, then radon where it has an average 3.8 days to seep out of the Earth and into our basements, where it then becomes radioactive metals that attach to dust, get breathed in (or eaten) and present dangers. In the scale of things, crazy. Chemistry is fascinating.
867-5309: > That He atom rapidly steals electrons from mattertfa:> Thanks to its filled outer electron shell, it is inert, and won’t react with other materials
wat10000: Because it rapidly steals electrons, it becomes inert quickly. Helium you find lying around will be inert. Helium that has just shot out from the radioactive decay of an unstable atom will not be inert.
jmyeet: Terrestial helium isn't produced by nuclear fusion. It's produced by nuclear decay. As you may know, youg et alpha, beta and gamma radiation from decay. Gamma rays are just energetic photos. You typically need thick lead and/or concrete to shield you from them. Beta radiation is high energy electrons. A thin sheet of steel will shield you from those.And lastly we have alpha radiation, which is just a Helium nucleus. A sheet of paper will generally block alpha radiation.Some materials are really strong alpha emitters. A good example is Polonium-210 where almost all of its energy from decay is in the form of alpha radiation. This is why Po-210 is so lethal when ingested, which has been used for that purpose [1].But this means if you produce a lump of Polonium-210, it's basically radiating Helium. The source of almost all of the Earth's Helium is from uranium and thorium decay.[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...
adrianN: It can form during radioactive decay of uranium and thorium.
wat10000: And that's where all of our helium actually comes from. Any radioactive decay that emits alpha particles generates helium, since alpha particles are just helium nuclei. When that happens underground, the helium can get trapped. It tends to get trapped in the same places that natural gas gets trapped, so natural gas extraction often encounters helium as well.Similar to oil and gas (although a completely different mechanism), it takes deep time to accumulate, but can be extracted much, much faster. So although new helium is being generated underground all the time, we can still run out in a practical sense.
llm_nerd: The alpha particle that is emitted from an alpha decay isn't actually called a He atom -- I was being loose with terminology -- though it has the right number of protons and neutrons. It's called an alpha particle. Once it steals two electrons -- it carries a +2 charge and is extremely successfully at slicing electrons off of other molecules it comes across -- it is then considered the helium that we know and love, and is now stable with the properties we know.And by stealing those electrons from other molecules it sets off other chemical reactions, which in things like DNA is highly suboptimal.
jmyeet: The US used to have a massive Strategic Helium Reserve [1]. Starting in the 1990s, Congress passed a law to sell down the reserve. This flooded the market with cheap Helium (yay, party balloons?) because the mandated pricing just didn't make any sense.10-20 years ago there was a lot of talk about how this was foolish because it was depleting and squandering an unrenewable resource. But the thinking has shifted on that because it's an inevitable byproduct of natural gas production.Now natural gas itself is limited but you can still get Helium from alpha decay of radioactive elements. Some elements are particularly strong alpha emitters (eg Polonium-210, Radium-223). They're basiclaly producing Helium constantly.Helium is a known issue in various industries. The article notes (correctly) that MRI Helium use is decreasing because of the rise of so-called "Helium free" or "Helium light" MRI technology.But there are short term supply issues. As noted, Qatar produces ~30% of the world's Helium currently. And that can (and has) been disrupted by recent events.Lithography is a particularly important consumer of Helium for superconducting magnets. That demand is rising with probably no end in sight. Lithography itself is on the cutting edge of technology and engineering so seems harder to replace. I mean, EUV lithography is basically magic.[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve
parineum: Part of the reason there's a shortage is because the US was the main supplier. There was no market incentive for anyone to invest into helium extraction.It'd be like if the US used it's strategic oil reserve to supply the US with oil at a low price at all times.A strategic reserve isn't supposed to be used as a supply. The existence of a strategic reserve shouldn't have an effect on the supply of helium except in an emergency. The fact that selling the helium reserve could create a shortage should tell you that it wasn't being used as a reserve but as a supply.The US was, essentially, artificial subsidizing the price of helium. What's happening now is that people are actually paying the real price of helium.
actionfromafar: Exactly right. We may yet find out what happens when someone sells the strategic oil reserve.
rootusrootus: Despite all the online rhetoric, and the popularity of mis-naming political movements, sometimes I think the people who hate America the most and want it to fail are Americans themselves.
senderista: I think that's broadly true: both sides want America to fail when the other side is in power in order to prove they're right.
cubefox: The article briefly touches on insufficient recycling. Though it's not clear for which applications helium recycling is technically feasible and for which it isn't.
phplovesong: "The war in Iran" should be called for what it is:Its "trumps war", nothing else. Hes the solely to blaim. Israel would never had started it on their own.The kicker? MAGA voted for "the no wars president", and so far hes started FIVE.
nickff: Your post is frustrating to read because of the incorrect spelling and grammar; these errors make it hard to take you seriously.>""The war in Iran" should be called for what it is:>"Its "trumps war", nothing else. Hes the solely to blaim. Israel would never had started it on their own.>"The kicker? MAGA voted for "the no wars president", and so far hes started FIVE."Could be:"The war in Iran" should be called what it is:It's 'Trump's War', and nothing else. He's solely to blame. Israel would not have started it on their own.The kicker is that MAGA voted for the 'no-war' president, and so far, he's started five.Note that in addition to spelling and grammar, I switched "FIVE" to lower-case italics (which are reverted to regular because the block is italicized), as capitalizing for emphasis is against the HN guidelines.
nradov: For diving, there has been some experimental use of hydrogen as a partial replacement for helium in breathing gas mixtures. This obviously increases the risk of fires and the physiological effects aren't fully understood. But it might eventually be used in commercial, military, and exploration diving for those cases where we need to send humans really deep and using an atmospheric suit isn't an option. Regular sport divers will probably never breathe hydrogen.https://indepthmag.com/hydrogen-dreamin/
snek_case: For divers, we really should be focusing on building better underwater drones. Remove the risk to human life entirely. You don't need AI either, just a remote-controlled machine with a cable that goes up to the surface. I know there is some loss in dexterity with current robot arms, but building more dexterous system seems like it's not an impossible task.
JumpCrisscross: > *particle that is emitted from an alpha decay isn't actually called a He atom”“Because they are identical to helium nuclei, they are also sometimes written as He2+…” [1].[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_particle
onraglanroad: You should really have posed that as a "I don't know anything about this so I'm confused" question.
nradov: ROVs have already reduced the demand for commercial divers on some types of work. But it's going to take decades (if ever) until they're able to do the full range of human tasks. Some construction work has to be done essentially by feel in near-zero visibility so using an ROV for that would require advanced force feedback mechanisms, maybe imaging sonar and other sensors. Not necessarily impossible, but extraordinarily difficult and extremely expensive with current technology.For sport and exploration divers, going there yourself is kind of the whole point. I'm not interested in watching a video feed from an underwater drone.
chii: I would imagine that an alpha particle would still be inert in the sense that it won't cause chemical reactions with other molecules.
kergonath: Stealing electrons is a chemical reaction.
cineticdaffodil: So how hard would it be for elon to build a gas raffinery sattelite that captures helium while skimming the top layer of the atmosphere, dropping filled canisters by parachute?
Aboutplants: I’m not really worried about any potential helium shortage. We are actually really good at extracting it, the problem is purely economics and as soon as prices get to the point where investment is warranted then there will continue to be adequate supplies. The main issue right now is the proper demand increase forecasts do not align with potential investments costs and helium extraction investment does just not make much economic sense given current forecast Helium costs.
vlovich123: If demand keeps growing (as it has been), we've got ~40-60 years of "cheap" reserves left. As helium prices start to increase, you've got price shocks down the supply chain.There's about 40-70 billion cubic meters of economically recoverable (assuming future technology development + price increases). The complete total upper end of known geological reserves is ~60-100 billion cubic meters - that's about correct in terms of order of magnitude even if we find new deposits.Current consumption is 180 million cubic meters/year. At a growth of 3%, you've got 80-140 years before we run out. At 5% growth it's 50-90 years.Saying "I'm not worried about it" is true in the myopically selfish "I personally won't have to care about it". It's conceivable that your children will be dealing with it and definitely grandchildren in a very real existentially meaningful way.
amelius: I'm guessing you can find a supply of helium near the top of the atmosphere :)
