Discussion

What Gödel Discovered

dvt: This blog post gets way too caught up in Gödel numbers, which are merely a technical detail (specifically how the encoding is done is irrelevant). A clever detail, but a detail nonetheless. Author gets lost in the sauce and kind of misses the forest for the trees. In class, we used Löb's Theorem[1] to prove Gödel, which is much more grokkable (and arguably even more clever). If you truly get Löb, it'll kind of blow your mind.[1] https://inference-review.com/article/loebs-theorem-and-curry...

txhwind: The proof will be more friendly to nowadays programmers if we treat all "Gödel numbers" as bytecode of a programming language. It's trivial that functions like "prove" and "subst" can be implemented based on abilities like bytecode parsing and expression tree manipulation.

qnleigh: Yeah, I think it would be better to first explain the liar's paradox to give the broad brush strokes, and then go into the details of Gôdel numbering.It seems like most expositions of Gödel's incompleteness theorem go into a surprising amount of detail about Gödel numbering. In a way it's nice though, because you see that the proof is actually pretty elementary and doesn't require fancy math as a prerequisite.

qnleigh: I feel like it's nice to get the gist before diving into the gory details. The proof works by showing that just within the axioms of arithmetic, you can formally state the sentence "this sentence is unprovable." This has some very strange consequences:- It can't be false, because if it's false then it is provable, and 'provable' means ' can be proven to be true.' So this is a contraction.- So therefore it must be true. Consequently there are statements that are true but unprovable, even just within the axioms of arithmetic.This is Gödel's incompleteness theorem in a nutshell. Most of the proof is spent developing machinery for doing logic, talking about provability, and ultimately getting a statement to refer to itself all using integers and their properties. It's quite satisfying because it doesn't require any super-advanced math, and yet the result is very deep.

qnleigh: You might say "but wait, haven't we just proven that it's true? So isn't that also a contradiction?" This would be a disaster, because it would prove that the axioms of arithmetic are inconsistent! Now 1+1=3 for all we know.The catch is that when we proved that the sentence is not false, we used proof by contradiction, and for proof by contradiction to be a valid method of proof, we need to assume that the axioms we are working with are consistent (and therefore can't produce a contradiction). So really all we have proved is that either:- the sentence is trueOr- the axioms of arithmetic are inconsistentWe can't prove that the axioms of arithmetic are consistent, so we haven't actually proven that the sentence is true.This issue is actually a major part of Gödel's theorem; we can only avoid a paradox of the axioms of arithmetic can't prove their own consistency. These theorems apply to any system of axioms that are rich enough to state the liar's paradox.

annie511266728: Yeah, I think that's the tradeoff.Löb gets you to the main idea faster, but Gödel numbering is the part that makes it feel like the system is actually doing it itself.Without that step, it can start to feel a bit too close to the liar paradox.

cousin_it: Yeah. I'd say half of the work is Gödel numbering and the other half is the diagonal lemma.

eis: > These theorems apply to any system of axioms that are rich enough to state the liar's paradox.Isn't that circular reasoning or tautological though? Rephrased: any system that can state something that these theorems apply to, can have the theorems applied to.I think the word "rich" is too inaccurate in this context. It is not clear why there can't be a more "rich" system which does not suffer from this issue and can't state the liars paradox.

Nevermark: Other names for Gödel encoding: Digital. Binary.Today Gödel encoding is so pervasive, it’s easy to miss that everything is trivially Gödel encoded.We Gödel encode our memes and pr0n and gift cards. Even this .

bazoom42: I’m confused by this jump to the natural world:> could you encode in pure logic how a dog behavesAssuming we knew enough about how a dog behaves (or less ambitious, a more primitive organism) I would assume this could be described in a formal language. But why would Principia be needed for this?

ergonaught: > I would assume this could be described in a formal languageThe assumption is the first problem, no? If the formal language is complete, it must be inconsistent. If it is consistent, it must be incomplete. If the language is incomplete or inconsistent, you may be unable to encode dog behavior in it.

bazoom42: The article use “describing the bevavior of a dog” as something people began to think was possible because of Principia. This is what I don’t get. Was this thought impossible before Principia? On what grounds?

roxolotl: The assumption made by many in the early 20th century, spurred on by the recent successes of unification and formalization, was essentially that we could formally describe the entire universe. Godel’s proof shows that if you attempt to formally describe something there’s either an inconsistency or it’s incomplete. That doesn’t mean you cannot describe the behavior of a dog formally but it does mean the same formula which encodes the behavior will either be inconsistent or incomplete. It might only be inconsistent or incomplete when applied outside of defining the behavior of a dog though. That’s why the little preamble about unification exists in this post but it’s not very well tied into the rest of the post.

DarkNova6: As a non-mathematician I always wondered about one thing. Because the way I interpret the Incompleteness Theory is that "you cannot have a universal system of infinite expressiveness, because you will need a more expressive one to prove it".In other words, you can't have a top-down universal system. But you very well can have well described ones perfectly describe observable behaviour without defects.Or is this too reductive?

ghywertelling: Godel's 1st Incompleteness Theorem - Proof by Diagonalizationhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpSxqde0af4This is another good exposition.

coldtea: >This is what I don’t get. Was this thought impossible before Principia? On what grounds?Even the full formalization of mathematics wasn't considered certain (*) before Hilbert/Principia and those 20th century attempts. Much less the formalization being applied everything in the physical world or even animal behavior.* in retrospect rightly so, because it wasn't, at least not without inconsistency/incompleteness.

WhitneyLand: Saying his name like “girdle”, is the closest English pronunciation I’ve seen.The actual German ö is hard for me to figure out without having a native speaker around to practice with.

tmtvl: I'd say it's like the 'u' in 'hurt'.

dvt: The easiest way to think about it is like this:We have these things called systems: a "system" is anything that follows rules: a board game, traffic, the English language, math, C++, etc. Some systems are smart and they can talk about themselves, but others can't. For example, Tic-Tac-Toe can't talk about Tic-Tac-Toe, but English can talk about English.Gödel is interested in smart systems because dumb systems are boring.Some systems are useful: they are "useful" if they always says true things. So math is more useful than English. I can lie in English, but I can't lie in math. (Formally, this is what we call consistency).So here's a problem for you: suppose we have a smart-useful-system, call it SUS. SUS should be able to say "SUS is useful." It can talk about itself and it can't lie, so we should have no problem, right?Gödel showed that if our system can actually say that about itself, it wasn't useful to begin with. For a few centuries, philosophers and mathematicians were trying to come up with the "one perfect system": useful, smart, and also complete (it can say all true things), and a few more properties. Turns out such a system is impossible.NB: I use the words "say" or "talk about" in a very hand-wavy fashion, sometimes I mean Prove(), sometimes I mean Entail(). The details are very nuanced, and this isn't meant to be a deep dive.

jb1991: You are suggesting Godel created the punctuation mark known as a period? Obviously not. But I'm not sure what you are trying to say..

Nevermark: That period was encoded in a symbol string, i.e. it is a bit string.Today we encode everything in bi-symbol strings.This was not common when Gödel crafted his incompleteness theorem. And at the time it was a novel approach for setting up a context for testing the limits of computing.Some people can still be struck by it as novel when reading the proof, because in context it was, and still feels that way. But today "symbol string" representation is ordinary and pervasive.

bazoom42: Gödel did not invent encoding. Morse was widely used before Gödel.