Discussion

ocdtrekkie: This seems quite positive to me: Clearly the rightsholders are not being total jerks since they're happy to allow an OpenTTD bundle, and the original game is available with modern fixes as well.

basilikum: OpenTTD with its beyond clunky UI has a special spot in my heart.There is even an Android version with the same very much not touch friendly (but somewhat customizable) UI.

rasz: More likely they were jerks and blackmailed openttd into bundle on the threat of forcing them off steam altogether.

tonypapousek: > If you already own OpenTTD on Steam, nothing changes. You’ll continue to receive game updates as usual. If you ever need to re-download the game, the game will remain in your Steam library.This part of the announcement was nice, too. It would suck if existing users had it deleted from their libraries.

jjmarr: I like Simutrans more because the cargo and passengers have destinations in mind.TTD and OpenTTD do not which incentivizes mechanisms to dump everyone at the edge of the map.Aside from that they're both transport games with bad UIs.

TylerE: Why the simutrans folks decided on a weird hardcoded frame rate (40fps) that looks janky as hell on every single display ever I will never understand. Unplayable. instant motion sickness.

koolala: Atari got a game I like called Awesomenauts and revived it from being shutdown F2P to $20. They paid an old dev to get it playable on a temporary contract. Though it has a few rough qualities I'm glad it's playable again.

xyzzy_plugh: It would be nice if someone could provide some explanation as to why this situation is necessary. Did Atari's lawyers go full tilt?

II2II: Who knows, though I always thought that it was rather odd that OpenTTD was on Steam. I'm not sure whether that's because it is an open source remake or because you had to own the original for the graphics/sound assets back in the day. (Apparently that changed over 15 years ago!)Even if Atari's lawyers were involved, it may have been a friendly exchange. The post claims that OpenTTD was available on Steam for 5 years. That is more than enough time for them to apply legal pressure. It's also worth noting that the open source version is still available from the project website, as are the open assets.

Nition: Steam is really good about that kind of thing. Not quite the same, but I have a couple of games on my account that haven't been sold on the store for years, and I can still download them any time. I don't think there's any way for publishers to really remove a game that's already been purchased.

Krutonium: You're correct. It's part of the Steam Publisher Agreement that basically, you can't remove your game from users who have paid for it.And if you push an update that deletes the files, Valve can, will, and has rolled back the update.Of course, there's also situations where Valve has assisted in removing titles at developers request, but it was a situation Valve was involved in - Specifically, a game called "The Ship" had a Multiplayer version, and it was built on Source, but they could never quite get it to work correctly, even with Valve's help. Wouldn't sync.Valve helped them remove the Multiplayer version. (but you still kept the single player.)

rpcope1: I kind of doubt that. Chris Sawyer is on record being really hostile to open source reimaginations, especially OpenTTD (and it's just a reimagination at this point as OpenTTD shares no assets or code with it's predecessor). It wouldn't remotely surprise me if Atari was putting legal pressure on the OpenTTD devs.

skulk: OpenTTD has the `cargodist` option which simulates reality more closely. Passengers enter stations with a destination in mind and will transfer at other stations.

Macha: Note that a big difference between cargodist and simutrans is in simutrans the customers have a destination before they come to your station, so opening up new routes will increase your customer base. In cargodist, you get the same amount of passengers, regardless of connected destinations, and they just choose from among connected destinations in your network.

TuxMark5: This doesn't feel right for me. OpenTTD is so much superior in every way compared to the original TTD, that noone in their right mind would ever play the original. So Atari now, while spending zero effort compared to the years of work that OpenTTD devs put in, will basically sell OpenTTD as if was their own creation. People who buy the new TTD will simply play OpenTTD anyway, since it's so much better.I might be wrong, but it feels like Atari are like parasites in this situation feeding off the hard work of OpenTTD devs.

monster_truck: Came here to say this, was an instant bounce for me.

Krutonium: As someone who has been involved in OpenRCT2, which is another Chris Sawyer/Atari game, from what I can tell, Atari has a very hands off approach to these things.We know they know about us - We saw their Head of PR giving away keys for RCT2 on Twitch while playing OpenRCT2, prior to the release of RCT World (What a terrible game sadly).As far as we can tell, it's basically a "don't cause us problems and we won't bother you" situation.

ocdtrekkie: They legally own the assets. Taking them off Steam if the title is no longer abandoned by the publisher is a 100% reasonable decision, so you need to understand this is above and beyond what the publisher needs to do.An outcome like this more than likely means the folks working on the rerelease are fans of OpenTTD and worked internally to protect it.

integralid: Are you sure the stream version has proprietary assets? I was under impression that they had some open assets, but I may be wrong.

r2vcap: Atari? I never expected to see that ancient name again. If I remember correctly, I've been playing OpenTTD for more than a decade without the original TTD assets, and I usually build it from source, so this change won’t really affect me. Still, it feels a bit strange (even if it may be somewhat legitimate) to see Atari suddenly asserting rights over it.

PunchyHamster: The corpse of the company has been puppeteered by various owners for decades now

altairprime: [delayed]

QuantumNomad_: I haven’t played simultrans, but I wonder if it feels less janky on a 120 Hz or 240 Hz monitor, since both of those values are evenly divisible by 40. Compared to playing on a 60 Hz display or other non-multiple of 40 refresh rate monitors.

sarru_kin: Just use gog

nout: What is the story with OpenGFX then? It sounds like OpenTTD is completely new codebase and OpenGFX (which I also helped with) is completely new graphics. Why does one have to pay for that?

Macha: I think really hostile is overstating it. He's clearly not a fan, but he seems content to (mostly privately) disapprove rather than take actions against it, which is what would to me qualify him as hostile.

squeaky-clean: I remember reading an interview some years ago where they basically said they wouldn't try to shut them down, but they also did not appreciate the projects existing.

xyzzy_plugh: Weirdly the OpenTTD Steam page seems to be missing entirely at the moment: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1536610/

haunter: Not weirdly, that's the point of the whole announcement. You can't get OpenTTD on its own from Steam anymore, it comes with TTD now https://store.steampowered.com/app/3766810/Transport_Tycoon_...

1313ed01: Maybe I am not in my right mind, but I installed and played the original (non-Deluxe) TT maybe six months ago. Still a fun game! I was always just a casual player. Installing and playing OpenTTD as well now and then, but I never really get deep enough into those games to care much about different versions. They are all fun and overall I prefer to play games I can play in DOSBox over native games.

999900000999: I think most people who still buy RTC only do so to get the assets for OpenRTC2.Atari is in a really weird spot, the rights have changed hands so much.It would be nice if they offered a paid version of OpenRTC with the assets bundled. Ohh well

01100011: > while spending zero effortWhy do you think it took such little effort? Is it simply utilizing an emulation/portability package like Proton?

xyzzy_plugh: No, you misread. It's bundled on that page, which links to here:https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/70574/Transport_Tycoon...But the OpenTTD item listed in the bundle is non-existent at the moment.

fwipsy: Atari didn't put in the effort, but Chris Sawyer did. Now Atari paid Sawyer for the rights to the game. I do not think Atari is a parasite here just because they paid for the game instead of creating it.It seems to me that the logical outcome of your interpretation is that Sawyer's leniency towards the OpenTTD devs would be punished by losing exclusivity to his IP. Essentially, you are asserting "squatter's rights" to IP - if IP rights are not enforced, then they lapse. This is an interesting idea in principle, but I'm concerned that it might have prevented OpenTTD from ever being created. Original creators would be incentivized to chase off derivative works to protect their IP.

stephbook: Honestly fair and understandable. OpenTTD builds on TTD (it's right there in the name.)You aren't forced to play OpenTTD and you aren't forced to get it on Steam/GoG.It's acceptable.

TuxMark5: My issue with this argument is that I'm not sure how much of OpenTTD is their IP. OpenTTD has been development for so long that I doubt that any original disassembly remnants remain in the latest version of OpenTTD. The only true piece of IP that OpenTTD may use is the name (the TTD part of OpenTTD) and the graphics, the latter of which being the more important one. However, as far as I know, OpenTTD devs have created their own version of all the assets that are also much higher resolution compared to the original. As a result, I see OpenTTD as an entirely separate game, that's been heavily inspired by original, but is its own separate entity.

haunter: Doesn't matter because you can't buy on its own. It's like a free DLC.https://steamdb.info/bundle/70574/#subshttps://steamdb.info/app/1536610/

niam: Wow small world. Hello from a fellow L1 (2012-2016). I didn't realize Ronimo had gone bankrupt, so I suppose I should be glad I have a chance to boot it up again.

ndiddy: Obviously having OpenTTD available for free on Steam would jeopardize Atari's paid rerelease of Transport Tycoon Deluxe, so I think this is a good compromise. Hopefully they rigged it up so the assets from Transport Tycoon Deluxe get picked up automatically by OpenTTD when you install the bundle. I also hope that Atari will be sharing some of the revenue from the bundle with the OpenTTD team as part of this arrangement. They've spent the last 20+ years adding nice quality of life features and keeping the game playable, and I think they deserve to be rewarded for that effort. Going back to stock TTD after playing OpenTTD feels like a massive downgrade, like going from vim to BSD vi.

chrneu: I have nothing to base this on other than "it makes sense", but it seems like there has to be some form of revenue sharing here. OpenTTD is the reason why atari can even think this rerelease would work. I'm not saying there wouldn't be interest, but that I don't think any of the suits at atari would think to do this without OpenTTD keeping the interest there.

shagie: What about other platforms and stores? The same change has been made on the GOG.com store. All other distribution platforms are unchanged, and you can continue to download OpenTTD from our web site. However if you enjoy playing OpenTTD but you were never able to purchase a copy of the original Transport Tycoon game, you now have the opportunity to do so!

l72: How do you feel about old Lucas arts adventure games that are purchasable on gog and other platforms and come bundled with scummvm?

TuxMark5: I see no issue with it. The same way I see no issue selling old DOS games packaged with DOSBox. Neither ScummVM nor DOSBox are games themselves. In this case it's the content that matters.However in OpenTTDs case, the entire implementation is original (including the new high res assets).I would have 0 issues with this TTD/OpenTTD situation if OpenTTD was left on Steam as-is and TTD was a separate purchase that granted the original assets for use in OpenTTD.

boxedemp: I get it, but it makes me sad.At least I already have it in my library so, looks like I still get updates.

matheusmoreira: > As far as we can tell, it's basically a "don't cause us problems and we won't bother you" situation.Seems like a reasonable compromise to me. Respect for Atari.

binaryturtle: So does OpenTTD gets a part of the generated income then? The team has costs too to support the game.

singpolyma3: What "leniency"? It's not like OpenTTD contains any TTD IP

MarioMan: It sounds to me like a product of the ‘90s. CRTs were still common, and they support essentially arbitrary fixed refresh rates. It wouldn’t have been a big deal at the time. It’s like how the original Doom runs at a native 35fps when you don’t use interpolation.

singpolyma3: I don't think they'd have any case for legitimate legal pressure but clearly some kind of underhanded bullying. Hopefully no one buys this

denotational: Given the “rightsholders” have no rights over OpenTTD (only the assets are copyrightable, and OpenTTD has had its own set of open-source assets for the past 15 years), I can’t agree with this.I’m not sure how to interpret this other than Atari not wanting to compete with OpenTTD on Steam.

Tuna-Fish: It's more complicated than that. For an asset to be derived work from an original, it is not necessary for it to contain anything from the original. If you start from copyrighted assets, and meticulously replace them all with your own art piece by piece, while following the style and constraints of the originals, and while looking at the originals, I'd bet that a court would find your work to be derived from the originals and therefore under their copyright.A lot of the fan-driven reimplementations of classic games are trivially derived works, because people seem to think that the copyright only covers the pixels in the originals and if you replace them you're fine.

anthk: FreeDoom does that with Doom and it has compatible assets but not in the same style altough they are done in such smart way that most PWADs and TC are totally playable without clashes, from Requiem to Back To Saturn.On game engines, reimplementations are not derivations at all but tools for interoperability, totally legal to create. From Wine to most of the stuff of https://osgameclones.com, to GNUStep against NeXT/OpenStep API (and Cocoa from early OSX) and so on.If you could sell Cedega back in the day you can totally sell OpenTTD with free assets, period.The entire PC industry exists today because of cheap IBM BIOS clones from Taiwan.

singpolyma3: Just get direct from OpenTTD or your OS

singpolyma3: "builds on" in concept and by using the same three letters. Not builds on in a legal sense

anthk: OpenTTD now has a totally free asset pack covering everything, it doesn't need the original TTD at all.

anthk: You can just legally get the ones from the demo file in ZIP format.

TylerE: Actually, it's not 40, it's 25, even worse.

anthk: >ScummvmScummvm could adapt OpenTTD for their own working in the exact same way as OpenTTD. They did that with Ultima.

khoirul: Lots of words, but nowhere does it say: why?. Did Chris Sawyer sue them or something?